viola-tor's MPG problem thread

Discussion in 'Crazy-Awesome almost Dakar racers (950/990cc)' started by viola-tor, Mar 12, 2012.

  1. tahoeacr

    tahoeacr Long timer

    Joined:
    Jan 7, 2007
    Oddometer:
    2,219
    Location:
    Lake Tahoe
    Did I read that you are running the Akra map? Put the stocker in and leave o-2 on. Let them do there job. If the bike is running well there is nothing wrong most likely but the mapping. Your o-2 sensors could be toast as I have ran into some that were. Running 70-80 you are not going to get that good of milage for these tall bricks.
    Your bike is so bad you can blindly lean it out without worry:rofl. Try subtracting 10% fuel from 1% to 20% tps 2K to 4.5K on the F1/F2 maps. Test ride. If all is well subtract 5% same area. Keep going until you feel slight hesitation. At that point your getting lean so add 3% back in. Check your spark plugs. When I say slight hesitation I mean steady throttle and very easily adding throttle as if you just want to pick up speed a couple mph. If you twist it too hard the ECU switches over to the MAP based map. Wouldn't be a bad idea to change the f/l switch down to 1800rpm while your doing this. Even with the f/l that low you still have throttle enrichment when you twist it.

    Remember:

    1) pay attention to light throttle response.
    2) the famous throttle notch, jerk or whatever. It should get smoother. Yours is probably bad.

    Anyone can try this. Use smaller increments if your milage isn't as bad. And of course the disclaimer:


    TUNE AT YOUR OWN RISK:deal

    Always use a wide-band and fresh gas on a closed course with a professional rider and tuner. Always were a helmet. Never get your 950/990 dirty as someone might think you cut through an illegal field on your way to Starbucks. Never drink more than one cup:freakyof coffee before riding as inherent wheelie problems could exist and gas stations hard to resist.
    blahblahblah
    #81
  2. Katoom119

    Katoom119 Mmmm....Orange Kool-aid

    Joined:
    Jun 5, 2007
    Oddometer:
    1,837
    Location:
    Knoxville, TN
    +1 Tahoeacr knows his crap. I'm very wary of what I can do when it comes to this stuff but I wouldn't hesitate at all to follow his instructions.

    You want me to get my map from Wheeler and pull up the throttle values and settings? It may not be spot on but it should be closer. Also, you going to WestFest? I think I'm heading out, hell you can pull my map if you want. I can swing by Texas.
    #82
  3. bikyto

    bikyto Dans le doute...gaz!

    Joined:
    Jun 15, 2009
    Oddometer:
    2,200
    Location:
    Northern Cali
    +1

    On the o2 sensors, I've seen a few go bad too. When you turn them off in tuneecu (but don't remove them)... It kills them after some miles.

    Tahoeacr: Good point on the f/l switch when testing
    #83
  4. Tirespin

    Tirespin Been here awhile

    Joined:
    Jul 11, 2003
    Oddometer:
    259
    Location:
    Where the Muk is Heckilteo?
    Check your voltage while running, preferably while riding. High and/or low voltage can put the ECU in limp home mode where it over-fuels to prevent possible damage from running lean.
    #84
  5. DirtJack

    DirtJack Adventurer

    Joined:
    Aug 12, 2007
    Oddometer:
    1,644
    Location:
    San Antonio, Texas
    Hey Diek, glad you are back. Tahoeacr's suggestions are good to try. There is no reason to run the Akra map on your bike. You can compare your original map with the stock map to see if you were stock before. Some of the changes you noted after canister and sas removal were likely due to the new throttle cables and not having the TPS set after the change.

    I'm not sure how turning off the O2 sensors in Tuneecu could have any effect on the sensors (they are pretty much a passive device), but that doesn't mean that one (or both) are not bad.

    I'm making progress on my PT so I hope to be back riding soon (and wrenching) so I'll be able to help you sort this out. BTW, if you can make breakfast on Friday, its on me.
    #85
  6. bikyto

    bikyto Dans le doute...gaz!

    Joined:
    Jun 15, 2009
    Oddometer:
    2,200
    Location:
    Northern Cali
    From what I recall, Diek has been running the akra map for quite a while. By default, in an akra map, the O2 sensors are turned off. Having them plugged in but "off" isn't something the sensors particularly like. So my post was to remind him that if he is to turn them back on (either in the stock or akra map), he might run into that issue of having dead o2 sensors. Fwiw. :freaky
    #86
  7. gefr

    gefr Life is a trip

    Joined:
    Nov 26, 2005
    Oddometer:
    4,231
    Location:
    East Med, Greece
    I had both O2 sensors die. They definitely are "passive devices?"
    They operate at high temp which, if not produced from exhaust gas, is raised through preheaters. Maybe when they are subjected in exhaust gas flow, in lower temp, they get destroyed, collecting carbon residuals?
    Cheers
    #87
  8. Yascher

    Yascher Been here awhile

    Joined:
    Oct 8, 2009
    Oddometer:
    394
    Location:
    Moscow, Russia
    so these should be possible to bring alive with a gas torch?
    #88
  9. gefr

    gefr Life is a trip

    Joined:
    Nov 26, 2005
    Oddometer:
    4,231
    Location:
    East Med, Greece
    I can't comment on that. The usual diagnose is preheat grounded. I don't know if a torch or air pressure could breath some life in them.
    Cheers.
    #89
  10. DirtJack

    DirtJack Adventurer

    Joined:
    Aug 12, 2007
    Oddometer:
    1,644
    Location:
    San Antonio, Texas
    I don't think Viola-tor has verified whether or not the O2 sensors are working yet. The 990 ECU uses the O2 sensor setting to select whether or not to enter a loop-back mode (adjusting the fuel ratio depending on the voltage read from the sensor). The ECU does not attempt to enter loop-back mode until the O2 sensors are up to operating temperature (the 990 has O2 sensor heaters to speed the warm-up). If the O2 sensors are disabled, the ECU uses fixed maps for the given rpm, motor-temperature, ambient air temperature, air pressure, etc., just as it does during initial warm-up.
    #90
  11. viola-tor

    viola-tor Needs to ride!

    Joined:
    Feb 27, 2008
    Oddometer:
    2,071
    Location:
    Rockies. Freakin' Rockies.
    So it's been a sad summer, at least as far as the orange beastie is concerned. But anyway, I'm going to give it a another stab to try to figure out this MPG/fueling issue so hopefully I can do some fall riding.

    HOWEVER,

    There are some conditions: I personally have to be able to do it at home, and at minimal cost. I've been unsuccessful at finding a competent professional KTM tuner within a thousand miles, much less an affordable one.

    I've added a Shorai battery, and finally got Windows running on my Mac. I know how to upload/download maps, and run all the TuneECU diagnostic tools (which all pass). MPG is still in the mid 20's (when I parked the bike in March :cry). That's where I stand.


    Here's what I WANT to accomplish, in this order:

    1. Correct/ideal fuel mix.
    2. KNOWING I have the correct ideal fuel mix (like hard data, not just "going for a ride and tallying MPG")
    3. 35 mpg or better, whilst flogging it (which seems a reasonable expectation)
    4. HP gain if possible (only as a bonus, I really just want my bike back)


    Tell me if I'm wrong, but it sure seems to me to satisfy these goals I'll need some sort of diagnostic equipment, yes? I'm ignorant of such things. I've heard of tailpipe sniffers (measuring exhaust "mix"?), and of course dynos (measuring HP and tourque). What about some sort of real-time data logger while the bike is running that gives insight into fuel mix and such? Or would that be part of a dyno tune session?

    I'm guessing it is unlikely reasonable to attain this equipment at home, which puts me back to square one (please tell me if I'm wrong or if there is a poor-man's work-around).

    Which brings me to the OTHER way out of this mess: Becoming the first LC8 owner in history to REINSTALL the SAS system, attempting to bring the bike back to close-to-stock. This seems wrong out of principle, but I can put principles aside if it means I'll be allowed back in the saddle. Plus this would cost next to nothing. Would it work? Reinstall SAS and load stock map? I still wouldn't KNOW that it's working optimally, but there's a good chance it would be...

    Be gentle, I know the few OC inmates who actually, TRULY understand this F.I. black magic must get SOOOOO frustrated explaining it to us neanderthals again and again. Your insight is appreciated. I mean, I get it: Fuel + Oxygen = Go. Right. To much/little of one or the other throws it off. Yes, TuneECU will let you change a multitude of parameters. That's great. My hang up is how one KNOWS what to change, and how much. Not guess, but KNOW. Guessing seems to offer no advantage over carbs, and equally as frustrating. My bike is running rich. Obviously. Great. TuneECU hasn't helped me to come to that conclusion, nor has it even confirmed that.

    Okay, enough, I'm starting to rant. Time for solutions! :ear

    Diek
    #91
  12. Dusty

    Dusty Long timer

    Joined:
    Jun 15, 2007
    Oddometer:
    1,319
    Location:
    Bismarck
    Don't forget Fire

    I am sure the experts will be here soon to help.

    How about a list of mods to the bike to get the help rollin.....

    A screenshot of TuneECU hooked up can also be helpful.
    Air filter.. prefilter?
    Exhaust
    which map now... actual OEM#
    gearing
    Throttle body intakes clean
    fuel filter change
    or anything else that might help.

    My guess is you have an aftermarket Airfilter(which could be beyond its life span) and a prefilter, and the Arka map.= gas hog to rich



    As i made my bike more dirt worthy my mileage has slowly gone down.
    Tires- gearing- prefilter- Maps... just sayin thats my experience.
    Again my experience is the Arka map is rich, to rich for my bike. 07 w/arkos and full ectomies.
    I can run the stock map on my bike with the F/L switch set 0 above 2000 rpm, tho i get the best fuel mileage with that setup i hear the fan run more than usual when in 1st and 2nd which leads me to believe it is near lean. This is all just seat o the pants tune, i would love a data logger, just not in the budget.

    So when its hot in the summer i run the 1/2 Arka map with some tweaks, and jump back to the stock map in the cooler months.
    #92
  13. gefr

    gefr Life is a trip

    Joined:
    Nov 26, 2005
    Oddometer:
    4,231
    Location:
    East Med, Greece
    #93
  14. ChR1s

    ChR1s Spherical Bastard

    Joined:
    Aug 26, 2003
    Oddometer:
    336
    Location:
    Massachusetts
    How does the overall engine performance compare to its prior state?
    #94
  15. viola-tor

    viola-tor Needs to ride!

    Joined:
    Feb 27, 2008
    Oddometer:
    2,071
    Location:
    Rockies. Freakin' Rockies.


    .
    #95
  16. viola-tor

    viola-tor Needs to ride!

    Joined:
    Feb 27, 2008
    Oddometer:
    2,071
    Location:
    Rockies. Freakin' Rockies.
    A good read, but seems to be kinda specific trouble shooting for carbs...


    It performs just fine! I took a trip to Big Bend Nat. Park in March, getting 23-27 mpg all the way, slabbing and dirting (down from 35-38 MPG average pre-SAS removal)... But performance was not adversely effected. I can't afford to ride at 23 mpg is the sad truth. MUST FIX. It's just hard when it's not really broken...


    [​IMG]
    #96
  17. Katoom119

    Katoom119 Mmmm....Orange Kool-aid

    Joined:
    Jun 5, 2007
    Oddometer:
    1,837
    Location:
    Knoxville, TN
    Just remember if you reinstall the SAS you won't be able to run an exhaust gas analyzer as it screws with the true values.
    #97
  18. gefr

    gefr Life is a trip

    Joined:
    Nov 26, 2005
    Oddometer:
    4,231
    Location:
    East Med, Greece
    I would think thie only option in your shoes is ultrasonic jet cleaning.
    Cheers.
    #98
  19. DirtJack

    DirtJack Adventurer

    Joined:
    Aug 12, 2007
    Oddometer:
    1,644
    Location:
    San Antonio, Texas
    I'm confused. How would dirty injectors increase fuel consumption?

    Diek, call me when you get back in town.
    #99
  20. Scott Baja

    Scott Baja el semental negro

    Joined:
    May 27, 2010
    Oddometer:
    232
    Location:
    Missoula MT
    I dont know if this has been discussed in this thread. My fuel milage was going down. Started out over 35mpg, then slowly going down to about 29mpg. The rear scorp was worn out, so replaced with half used dunlap 908. My mpg increased back to over 35mpg. Also, I had been tacking about 5k at 75mph, now with different tire, about 5k at 80mph. The gearing is 16 45. Dont really know why or what this means, its just the results so far. :deal