We can turn this tragedy in to a win win for all forest users.

Discussion in 'West – California, the desert southwest and whatev' started by Mr. Carts, Mar 4, 2014.

  1. Mr. Carts

    Mr. Carts Been here awhile

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    "I know it's after the fact, but why in the fuck could they have not ridden some motorcycles up there to search through the night? He was found right on the Main divide for Christ sakes!"

    It is a primetime to step up and make it be know that the ADV members are willing to assist in these situations.

    If the OCSD, RCSD and USFS know that they could have a group of riders who can assist in a moments notice to help find lost folks.

    We would have a big impact public opinion on keeping riding trails open.
    #1
  2. hbmichael

    hbmichael Been here awhile

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    I concur completely! This is partly the blame of all the communities and public agencies that use,maintain,patrol or,profit in the Cleveland National Forest. Many many knowledgable people and resources were available to avert this tragedy. Better COMMUNICATION AND MUTUAL RESPECT is what is needed between hikers, mountain bike riders, equestrians, local authorities, motorcyclists and others.
    #2
  3. Mr. Carts

    Mr. Carts Been here awhile

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    We need to get groups that can cover areas.

    I can do San Bernardino NF south of the 10, this is Bee Canyon, Idyllwild, Rouse trail , Thomas mountain.

    CNF Palomar, South divide road and Tenaja .

    I can get to these locations in about a hour or less.
    #3
  4. bmwgo

    bmwgo I love moto's

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    Liability attorneys may keep us moto people from working directly with first responders. First responders may also think us as "being in the way". Great idea that could save lives for sure though. :clap
    #4
  5. Mr. Carts

    Mr. Carts Been here awhile

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    This is a group of guys on bikes that will make sure that this never happens again.

    We can be out there long before the LEO show up.

    We need to do this ourselves what if it had been one of us up there?

    In 1981 my buddy Jim and I went off the side main divide road in a jeep on a Sunday night about 7pm during a storm like the one on Sat.

    Jim and I were lucky that some guys came along and found us or we would have been dead.

    Some of you might have read the story, Jim put it in his book.

    Off-Road Emergency Repair and Survival
    by James Ristow


    I will not allow this to happen again.

    If in anyway I can help to prevent another tragedy from happening.
    #5
  6. bmwgo

    bmwgo I love moto's

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    I hear ya bud. Good idea going in stealth around officials having their coffee at 8am formulating a plan.
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  7. mr. thumbs

    mr. thumbs Long timer

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    Tony Santero
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    ibsantero@aol.com

    From home I can gear up and be at the MS gate of the CNF in 45 minutes. On bike or by 4x4 truck.

    I'll go looking for anyone in need at anytime. 24/7

    I'd be happy to compile a list of those willing to help anyone in the event of an emergency in the CNF. If everyone wants to send me their contact info and level of medical training I'll get the ball rolling on this.
    #7
  8. flei

    flei cycletherapist

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    I'm sure I will get flamed for this, but here's my .02

    I am a rider and a firefighter/emt/search/rescue responder with 20+ years experience (NOT in Calif.). Search and rescue is a serious undertaking and we are highly trained professionals. Organizing and executing a search and rescue is a major operation. Good communications are paramount. In the age of scanners etc., volunteers often show up at search and rescue operations eager to help. While lay bystanders do want to help, often when they try to do so they make matters worse. It may be as simple as obscuring the track of the lost party, or making noise that covers an SOS, or as complex as a supposed-rescuer getting lost or injured.

    If you want to help, please think about doing it right. I suspect there are volunteer search and rescue units in your area that would welcome folks with local knowledge and outdoor skills who wish to join.

    Thanks for listening!
    #8
  9. CA Stu

    CA Stu Thanks Super Moderator

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    Thanks for posting. :thumb
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  10. bmwgo

    bmwgo I love moto's

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    Much respect brutha. I'm a California native and I've never seen dangerous weather in this state, boy I did in Nebraska though! Real scary actually. I think it was a bad call still, the weather wasn't all that bad really. After all this is California. No flame man....
    #10
  11. flynride

    flynride Been here awhile

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    Didn't an outside volunteer on a Moto find the biker?

    The whole point of this is that certain people who are very familiar with specific areas are available to help with specialized and use specific equipment. They should be listed, vetted and available for use.

    This will never happen though because of political correctness and current bureaucracy in local government.
    #11
  12. RAZR

    RAZR u may run the risks my friend but I do the cutting

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    when you find someone that needs rescue then what???

    what if they're unconscious?

    what if they broke their neck/back but you didn't know and they didn't realize it?

    what if they're bleeding out of their eyeballs and ears and mouth??

    are you certified in CPR? do you have the proper equipment to stabilize a broken femur/back/neck/ankle etc?

    do you carry a winch to get an injured person up the side of the mountain?

    great idea and I agree the Sheriff/Forest Service fucked up on this situation, but anyone riding/hiking/camping/etc in the wild, needs to have an out plan. whether it be a Spot/locator beacon or always riding with a buddy or having the proper gear to spend a day or two where ever you lay.

    more and more people think they will be saved. wrong mentality. yes, if you subscribe to Spot you hope it will help you but don't rely on it and don't ride over your head.

    when I ride alone, I take it down a notch. I also carry (to some people) way too much shit. but I wanna be prepared. even if I know there is civilization within a few miles.
    #12
  13. Jeff aka BOLT

    Jeff aka BOLT Prefer Saturdays

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    And when some untrained do-gooder stumbles upon your half dead carcass laying in a ditch all alone after taking a down-a-notch dirt nap you won't be so ultra concerned about his/her credentials. :rofl


    Spoken by a Red Cross Certified Trainer of Adult/Pediatric/First Responder CPR/AED/First Aid & Wilderness First Aid.
    #13
  14. bmwgo

    bmwgo I love moto's

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    You do your best.
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  15. flei

    flei cycletherapist

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    I don't live in Calif. and don't know who found the biker. If it was a volunteer who was allowed to search, then what is this thread complaining about?

    At least here out East, search and rescue teams are composed of local people who ARE familiar with specific areas (ie, local fire/rescue, forest service, etc.). People who are "specialized" and "use specific equipment" ARE a part of these teams (ie, high-angle rescue, confined space rescue, mountain rescue, swift water, ice, etc.). We can use highly specialized equipment (climbing gear, ATV's, rescue sleds, infrared cameras, helicopters, dogs, etc.). How many lay-people have access to such resources? The truth is, there are a lot of variables and sometimes rescue efforts fail and people die.

    Not sure what you mean to imply by "political correctness" and "current bureaucracy". If you mean that governmental agencies don't want to let lay-people engage in dangerous activities (like mountain search and rescue) because if THEY get hurt trying to help the government is liable, then, yeah, you are right!
    #15
  16. flynride

    flynride Been here awhile

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    You call for help and help out where you can. Most people know not to touch if something is catastrophically wrong. The idea is to find the person a fast a possible.
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  17. flei

    flei cycletherapist

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    You are right about it being important to "find the person as fast as possible". If you find the person, may I ask HOW you "call for help"? Do you have a radio that can access the emergency responders? Doubt it. Do you have a ham radio? Doubt it. Do you have a cell phone with service? If you are in a wilderness area around here: doubt it. If you have service, who do you call with your cell? Not 911....

    If you have an interest in helping and some skills, why not volunteer with a body already organized to help. We'd like that.
    #17
  18. bmwgo

    bmwgo I love moto's

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    So we do nothing?
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  19. flei

    flei cycletherapist

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    No, you do not "do nothing"!

    I said, "If you have an interest in helping and some skills, why not volunteer with a body already organized to help."

    I am from Mass. and know NOTHING about your area, but glean from this thread that this incident occurred in the Cleveland National Forest. Googled it and got this:

    http://bigstory.ap.org/article/1-calif-hiker-found-and-recovering-1-still-lost

    Read it and see search and rescue is no picnic! One rescuer received a head injury and 2 got lost and all 3 had to themselves be rescued!! Do you think this really helped make the rescue of the original victims more efficient?

    Sooooo... why not volunteer with a body already organized to help? Quick search found these opportunities and sure there are many more:


    http://www.fs.usda.gov/main/cleveland/workingtogether/volunteering

    and this:

    http://ocsd.org/divisions/office_of_the_sheriff/community/reserve/units/rescue

    Your help IS wanted; we just want it in a way that is most helpful!
    #19
  20. Jeff aka BOLT

    Jeff aka BOLT Prefer Saturdays

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    Because the lame ass Sheriff didn't call or use that BODY OF HELP in time.

    I guarantee if the call for help had hit ADV 20 guys would have been on those roads in minutes... the guy found in 2 hours when he was alive... and when they called 911 to report they found the injured man help would have come ! If they had to take a way point or count clicks off the trail to get a signal to make the call that's what they would have done.

    Your organized system of protocol FAILED because unionized civil servants are in charge of it and THEY are the weak link ! That's the point.
    #20