What do I want? Actuated hack wheel, swaybar, or?

Discussion in 'Hacks' started by ChuckS, Aug 28, 2013.

  1. ChuckS

    ChuckS Adventurer Wannabe

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    If I get time, a ride report is coming. 9 days, 1850 miles through mostly 2 lanes in Wisconsin & Michigan. My K1100/Ural worked admirably, but is going to need some modification before the next adventure.

    Mostly I use my hack as my work truck, carrying me plus about 40 lbs of tools/junk/whatever. It's a bit heavy on the steering, buy nothing I've bothered to change in 2 1/2 years and 25,000 miles. I'm pretty happy that the hack is aligned properly- on average, no pulling, good tire life, and mpg. After returning from our trip, I did finally take Claude's advice & reverse the forks, which did give me a bit lighter steering.

    Loaded for the trip, it was more like me, plus camping gear for 2, plus my better half. Steering a bit heavier, but still manageable. What is causing me pain is fighting the very variable crown in the roads. The 2 position adjuster on the hack shock is not enough.

    What are my options? Swaybar? Actuated wheel on the hack?

    I'm adjusting to the new economy-- right now, I'd rather spend my cash touring and not so much on mods, but....

    I have access to a wide variety of skills and tools, but I'll have to know how to explain what I want.



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    #1
  2. dholaday

    dholaday Been here awhile

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    Chuck:

    I think the answer is an electric camber control - also called a tilt control - it uses a linear actuator to allow you to compensate for different car loadings and/or road crown and/or prevailing crosswind and/or . . . .

    Claude and Jay and Dave Hannigan each use them. Boxermetal installed one on a rig he built.

    Duncan
    #2
  3. davebig

    davebig Another Angry Hun !

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  4. Melrone

    Melrone Been here awhile

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    I have to agree with Dave. The sway bar is alot better setup than my Electric Camber adjuster.I'm in the process of looking into switching..But the funds aren't there right now..In my oppion stay away from dmc if you want it done right..Talk to Claude he set you right...
    #4
  5. Abenteuerfahrer

    Abenteuerfahrer Deaf on Wheels

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    Hi Duncan... how's the rig serving you. Rest assured the fork bridge and ball joint were set in properly; torque; thread locker constant inspection. Do inspect it annually by lifting the the front end and check for play.. I am sure my line markers have dissipated by now.

    By the way you do now sport a swaybar in addition to your electric tilt, don't you?

    cheers..
    #5
  6. dholaday

    dholaday Been here awhile

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    DaveBig - Melrone - Elmer - Dan

    I run both a swaybar AND a tilt control. Swaybar does NOT help with varying road crown or crosswinds or sidecar loading or off-camber; the tilt control does. AceRph said he even uses us TC to help with left-hand sweepers.

    Once you set the swaybar it is set until you get off the rig and disconnect-reconnect the attachment points. If I understand things correctly it is a mor-or-less fixed suspension component. The electric tilt control can be adjusted dynamically, on the fly.

    Again, 2 of the 3 major builders [Claude and Hannigan] mentioned above use both tilt/camber control AND a swaybar, especially for their adventure-bike based rigs. Hannigan and DMC recommend a tilt control for most, if not all, their rigs; not sure whether Claude does too.

    Chuck: IF I wanted better handling and IF I were forced to choose between a swaybar and a tilt control, I'd choose the swaybar; but it will not solve your problem with road crowns [or badly-cambered roads or crosswinds]. I don't know how your rig is built. It is relatively easy to add a swaybar. It may not be easy to retrofit a tilt control. Claude will know I'm sure.

    Elmer: re fork bridge. I have complete trust in your install. But I'm going to have my dealer check it out in the next week or so.

    Thanks,
    Duncan
    #6
  7. davebig

    davebig Another Angry Hun !

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    If you started all over with a setup or possibly preloaded the swaybar a little that tilt control would be excess baggage,DB
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  8. dholaday

    dholaday Been here awhile

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    Not really. The Tilt Control does things the swaybar can't. And vice-versa. One is not a substitute for the other.

    Duncan
    #8
  9. davebig

    davebig Another Angry Hun !

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    Duncan you just love gizmo's, I've gottten along nicely without one but I like simpler.DB
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  10. dholaday

    dholaday Been here awhile

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    Re me and Gizmos: You bet - anything to make my life easier and more fun:D

    Re you and simpler: Baloney! :lol3
    Just like car tires and swaybars, lots of folks have tilt controls and like them. Don't knock something you have never used - we both know people who do and you are wiser than that.

    Regardless, a tilt control would deal with Cliff's problem; a swaybar won't.

    Duncan
    #10
  11. davebig

    davebig Another Angry Hun !

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    Consider me appropriately caned by both you and Mary today !:cry Standing up to me works !
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  12. Melrone

    Melrone Been here awhile

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    Duncan: I'm now thinking of switching mine to the swaybar system alond wwith everything They built..I've said this once I'll say it agin I don"t trust those guys.. After riding Daves rig that sway bar system is quite nice..I don't know if I will keep them both but I am considering that option also..After what you told me on the PM just prove my point about the owner of the company..enough said!!!
    #12
  13. ChuckS

    ChuckS Adventurer Wannabe

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    Excellent discussion.

    My understanding is that a sway bar will improve handling over bumps & uneven terrain by transferring load between the rear wheel & hack, which definitely has a place. Michigan uses a LOT of SMS (Simulated Moon Surface) for both paved & dirt roads. My rig handles great (this is rig # 5 for me), so a sway bar probably should not be my first choice. Even when I had a spinning cage try to take us out on the E-way, the rig handled great under maximum brake & steering inputs at 70 mph. Always room for improvement though...

    Tilt control will give me control over lean out of my rig, which will allow me to compensate for widely varying loads & road crown/camber. It won't help me soak up the bumps, or keep the tires planted, but it will help me for the seemingly endless miles of fighting road camber or trying to pick a lane where the rig wants to drive somewhat straight. It would be simpler if the loading of my hack didn't change by 300 lbs (yeah- we camp comfy).

    I think I've been talked into tilt control first, then maybe a sway bar. I'll try to tackle the tilt control myself. Lots of pics in the threads here http://advrider.com/forums/showthread.php?t=854135 , a friend was a welder at a nuke plant, and it seems like a fun project. (Also my rig is my primary transportation; getting it to & from Claude is a bit inconvenient.) If /when I add a sway bar, it seems there are more variables with a sway bar and I'd be wise to enlist Claude's experience.
    #13
  14. AceRph

    AceRph Affluenza Free! Administrator

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    I really like the tilt control. Duncan's right. I'll use it on left hand sweepers to counter the body roll, because I don't have a sway bar. You could use it going right or left if you set the car up high & have tilt control raised up to level the rig. I've been too lazy to try that. I have not ridden a rig w/ a sway bar. My understanding is that they roughen up the ride making the setup less sensitive to small bumps. But the handling in corners improves.

    I just installed new Wilburs on my GS & am waiting for the custom hack shock to come. I've already had a great improvement in handling w/ just new shocks on the tug. A lot less roll on corners now. The stock rear had too many miles on it, ~40K. It was hosed.

    I'll do a write up on the Wilbur install when the hack shock comes in. I expect more handling improvements with the better shock. I'm using a cheapo Progressive on the hack now. I know, what's to tell about installing new shocks on the rig, right? Just take the old ones off & stick the new ones on. Well, it didn't work out that way. The write-up will be less about what to do and more about what not to do. :lol3
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  15. davebig

    davebig Another Angry Hun !

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    I find allot nicer ride by turning the damping down on my new Yacugars.I don't think one can have it both ways a bike that's capable on rough surfaces and one that rides like the sitting room couch.The handling in the corners doesn't just improve it's extraordinary.Have you seen a HP sidecar without a swaybar ? Camber controls are not cornering devices but do what you think is right, I'd bet even DMC would agree on that one.DB
    #15
  16. AceRph

    AceRph Affluenza Free! Administrator

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    DMC would agree. I don't seem to need it like before w/ the new shocks. The old shocks were toast. The GS is not a hot rod rig by any means.

    One of the problems I've had is the hack wheel contacting the fender on left turns. Running the tilt control up would take care of some of the body roll & keep the fender off of the tire.

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    I've broken the front mounting bracket on the fender three or four times b/c of the wheel striking the fender.

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    Finally changed the fender to a trailer fender. My nephew cut the width down & put a heavier piece of steel on the back as a skirt/mounting surface.

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    And had a new, more substantial mounting bracket made.

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    #16
  17. Abenteuerfahrer

    Abenteuerfahrer Deaf on Wheels

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    Duncan's right; Aces right... about the tilt control. Used it for thousands of miles.

    Few of you or none ride the way I used to before I passed the rig to Duncan: SWMBO... ! My DMC rig was always fully loaded with the female of species. We might have ridden the likes of RedMenace, Mikepa, and Drone with their Panzerfaust adventures. I am NOT against swaybars IF placed correctly but NOT onto the swing arm of my Beemer! Proper shocking(Hyperpro or equivalent) with the bike and sidecar(h. duty Progressive or even 2 sets like Mikepa used on one of his Ueberhacks) will do wonders! Show me a German Sidecar manufacturer/Indep. shop over there that attaches a swaybar to a BMW's swingarm. The swingarm is already stressed to the hilt by the lateral forces of the sidecar plus it's occassional misaligned toe-in that I so often hear here.

    cheers...
    #17
  18. Strong Bad

    Strong Bad n00balicious

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    So basically you are saying you wouldn't mount a anti-swaybar system on a Beemer??? Am I missing something about anti-swaybar systems??? If the anti-swaybar isn't attached to each side of of two moving arms it would just be a simple spring like torsion bar.

    Could someone post up pics of how the Euro's are doing their anti-swaybar systems?
    #18
  19. Abenteuerfahrer

    Abenteuerfahrer Deaf on Wheels

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    " If the anti-swaybar isn't attached to each side of of two moving arms it would just be a simple spring like torsion bar". Correct! and would still serve it's purpose of alleviating some roll.

    No, I am not saying that a swaybar doesn't belong on a Beemer, far from it, just not attached to it's swing arm. Swaybars can be directed to be mounted to the rear of the subframe. In all honesty I do not know how the Europeans attach their swaybars to their sidecars/bikes, but I am sure not to the BMW's swing arm. Have yet to see a German manufacturer of sidecars attach a swaybar to the swing arm of a BMW. Double swing arm of other bikes, YES... but not the single ones! Maybe someone can guide me there

    cheers...
    #19
  20. Strong Bad

    Strong Bad n00balicious

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    Wouldn't attaching to the subframe be the same as attaching to any part of the tub's mount? Wouldn't that make the anti-swaybar a simple torsion style spring with the effect the same as just having a stiffer spring on the tub's shock?:confused Why go to all the trouble of the bar and attachment arms when you could just go with a stiffer spring?

    I think we both agree that linked to the swing arm is the best, its just a matter of how to do it without compromising what we have to work with.

    How much additional pressure put on the single sided arm would depend on the "rating" of the bar used. Couldn't a fairly light weight bar be used to lessen the sway but not completely remove it? I would be more than happy to get rid of 30% of my "monkey motion".

    Thanks for the replies, I'm VERY interested in getting this all worked out in a way more of us can understand.
    #20