What kind of battery for adventuring, is Lithium up to the challenge?

Discussion in 'Parallel Universe' started by JoelWisman, Mar 6, 2012.

  1. _cy_

    _cy_ Long timer

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    early Shorai batteries had an internal short problem which has be fixed long ago. battery melted, but didn't go into thermal runaway (explosion) it's hard even with wild abuse to cause a fire with LiFePO4.

    this is another issue that comes up ... LiFePO4 batteries are substantially smaller than OEM. probably making factory anchoring system not useable.

    dead short dangers are very real .. lithium batteries discharge at extremely high rates ... easily generating heat equal to Arc welding. we all have heard about welding setting off fires.

    then factor in folks that relocate batteries to completely different locations. don't lose your bike to a fire caused by dead short ... which are NOT the battery mfg's fault.

    batteries with cable leads have the highest risk of dead shorts. due to lack of hard mounts. black electrical tape is not enough. insulate positive connectors with a piece of rubber hose slit sideways, then tape that down good.

    make absolutely sure, battery cannot dead short out!!
  2. _cy_

    _cy_ Long timer

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    if shipping your Bike via airfreight, it's no longer legal to leave LiFePO4 battery in cargo hold.
    based on DOT formula, it's legal to carry on largest size LiFePO4 available from Earth-X and Shoria

    What is the Total Equivalent Lithium Content of My Battery?
    figuring using DOT formula below

    mAh/1000 x V = wh

    Earth-X ETX24 = 6.3 actual amp hour
    6.3 (actual AH) x 13.2 (nominal volt LiFePO4) = 83.16 watt hour

    problems: TSA will look at ETX24 label as 24AH, instead of actual 6.3 AH measured
    Yes most LiFePO4 motorcycle batteries will pass, if TSA uses actual instead of inflated lead acid equivalent AH measurements.

    ----------------------------
    http://safetravel.dot.gov/definitions.html

    Equivalent Lithium Content (ELC). ELC is a measure by which lithium ion batteries are classified.
    • 8 grams of equivalent lithium content are equal to about 100 watt-hours.
    • 25 grams of equivalent lithium content are equal to about 300 watt-hours.
    You can arrive at the number of watt-hours your battery provides if you know how many milliamp hours and volts your battery provides:

    mAh/1000 x V = wh

    Most lithium ion batteries marketed to consumers are below 100 watt-hours (8 grams ELC). If you are unsure of the watt-hour rating of your lithium ion battery, contact the manufacturer.

    Lithium Batteries. When you see this term alone on SafeTravel pages, it refers to both lithium ion batteries and lithium metal batteries. Lithium polymer batteries are a typeof lithium ion battery, and are included in this term.
    Lithium Ion Batteries. These are rechargeable lithium batteries, similar to those found in cameras, cell phones, laptop computers, and radio-controlled toys. Lithium polymer batteries are those types of lithium ion batteries. Larger Lithium Ion Batteries contain between 8 and 25 grams Equivalent Lithium Content (ELC). Some very large after-market laptop computer batteries, and some batteries used for professional audio-visual application, fall within this definition.
    Smaller Lithium Ion Batteries contain up to 8 grams Equivalent Lithium Content. Cell phone batteries and most laptop computer batteries fall below the 8 gram threshold.
    Lithium Ion Batteries with more than 25 grams ELC are forbidden in air travel.
    __________________
  3. frog13

    frog13 Long timer

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    cy,....when you speak of dead shorts and cable leads are you referring to an uncovered / unprotected lead contacting a piece of the frame....causing a short?.I'm electrically challenged by the way. TIA

    P.S. I've been considering a Shorai for my TW200,but have had my reservations due to what I've been reading on alot of different forums. TIA
  4. _cy_

    _cy_ Long timer

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    anytime stock size battery is not used. OEM battery clamp/hold down cannot be used. battery position was carefully engineered by OEM not to short out.

    LiFePO4 batteries are generally much smaller so extra care has to used to make certain positive does NOT short to ground.

    this goes double when mounting LiFePO4 battery in a different location as commonly done for cafe racers, etc. make dead certain positive cannot short to ground. don't lose your bike to a fire cause by a dead short. lithium batteries discharge at an extremely high rate, easily equal to heat generated by Arc welding.

    NO ... battery mfg is not responsible for loosing your bike to a fire caused by a dead short.
  5. Gumbeaux

    Gumbeaux The Chameleon

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    FWIW I guess Shorai now specifies the 21A battery for the F800GS, according to Andrew at Acme Rider Supply (my trusted accessories guy here in the Atlanta area). Picked mine up today. Will let you know how it goes...
  6. JRWooden

    JRWooden Long timer

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    Shorai has bumped up the spec. at least once for the twins ....

    For a while after they did that ... there was a trade-in program where if you had purchased the lower Ah capacity battery (following their recommendation) they would upgrade you to the larger battery for just the difference in price between the two ....
  7. _cy_

    _cy_ Long timer

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    please do let us know how it goes... based on extensive testing with Shorai LFX 21 and Earth-X ETX24 ... both tested out at about 6 amp hour actual capacities.

    using Joel's excellent test methodology of 200amps sustain load for 30sec, 10sec, 20sec = one test cycle. another reason for using Joel's testing methodology is to dovetail his results with mine. note all Joel's testing measurements were done with know to be accurate Fluke meters. note my test measurements are also done with known to be accurate Fluke meters when possible. Powerlab 8, which is world most advanced Li-ion workstation perform AH measurements. Joel has nicer Fluke meters than me, I've got more battery specific tools than Joel. both our data sets mates together nicely.

    Earth-X ETX24 outperformed Shorai LFX 21 for 200amp loads by a substantial margin. details in LiFePO4 testing thread... link in sig

    my recommendation is to ago with AGM, unless saving weight if more important and saving $$. if you are planning on using your 800GS for actual Adventure duties far away from support.

    for Adventure duties the only two LiFePO4 batteries I can recommend are Shorai LFX 36 and Earth-X ETX36 ... both have enough Amp Hour reserves to pass Joel's grueling 200amp continuous crank tests.

    for adventure duties both Shorai LFX 21 and Earth-X ETX24 failed from too small amp hour reserves. with Earth-X ETX 24 putting in an outstanding 200amp cranking performance!

    Shorai LFX 36 has passed with flying colors in R80G/S with one year of service, under hard cranking conditions. Earth-X ETX 36 is just getting started in R80G/S.
  8. Gumbeaux

    Gumbeaux The Chameleon

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    hey cy, I see that thread now :deal...great information!

    Anyway, I still think I will be fine with this battery. I am not heading off to South America with mounds of heated gear. I will run a heated vest occasionally, with some low drawing LED lights, a GPS, and stock heated grips sometimes.

    Maybe add a usb phone charger or something like that for rare use. I have a lil Datel voltmeter, but it's my understanding it may not be so useful as these batteries do not give much hint before they give it up.... ??
  9. JRWooden

    JRWooden Long timer

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    The voltmeter is still a great farkle ... it will give you some advance warning when your stator gives out :deal
  10. JoelWisman

    JoelWisman Long timer

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    Hi all, I'm not dead and no, my job is not restricting me from the internet :)

    I moved up to service manager and am in the process of becoming an owner and have simply working and training so much I had no time for the internet.

    I have caught up on the learning now, so hopefully am back.

    I have just finished reading all the posts since I was last on this thread and have absolutely no chance of responding to all the posts in the immediate future, but perhaps soon. But.... Ill comment on a few and then its night night for me and off to work in 5 hours.

    1: There hasn't been a summary so far because I was no where near done testing. I have had four careers in my life that influence my approach to testing. First was automotive technician, shop foreman, service manager and lastly field service engineer. This taught me things break but you really can't draw conclusions from a smattering of personal experiences. As an FSE I got to see figures on any part and application failure rate world wide. Sometimes a part that holds up great in Sweden fails at an alarming rate in California due to variables you hadn't considered. Next up I became an EMT Although it's rare, sometimes if your motorcycle or car won't start, you die. Disasters happen as do shootings and forest fires. (oh yeah, I fought wild land fires for 2 summers. terrible job but exciting). It's always possible that an emergency responder will follow my recommendation, (Actually the St. Louis FD did) and even if your not an emergency responder there are places your motorcycle could fail to start that could endanger your life, East St Louis for instance lmao and certainly some places people adventure ride. I feel extreme responsibility about making recommendations. Next up I was an industrial electrician. Once again I got to experience breakages on a scale that taught me to expect the unexpected and discount small scale experience with light duty use, so I TEST AND RETEST AND THEN I ABUSE. Once done with that, I test more and then start tracking large volumes of units.

    I have done that now, not only have I continued testing but once reasonably satisfied with the results, brought Antigravity into my dealership and have sold them to locals on an epic scale. ZERO FAILURES of batteries sold to locals! ALL of my tester Antigravity batteries are still functioning in motorcycles even after I torture tested them and got some to vent (small hissing noises on the Antigravities NOT to be mistaken for the incredible headers of white smoke followed by black smoke and the battery cases melting I experenced during testing of Shorais).

    I recommend properly sized Antigravity batteries in both every day and adventure rides. Properly sized does not mean you followed Scott's application chart. Testing his battery in every model and make of motorcycle he has listed is scarcely possible and not practical. It is Far better to take parasitic and load tests on the specific model of bike you have as well as take idiosyncrasies of that bike into account.

    I recommend a large and quality LiFePO4 battery above a lead/acid battery for adventure riding, especially on fuel injected bikes. The reason is that 22 years spent mostly in the automotive and motorcycle fields has given me thousands of examples where a battery with more cranking power will start a bike or car that an average or weak battery will not, even if you crank and charge all day. Aprilia and Moto Guzzi thank goodness do not have issues with fuel injectors sticking but BMW does, they have a big dang issue with sticky injectors which will often be experienced with questionable fuel you get while adventure riding to remote corners of the globe. System cranking voltage has a proportional effect on how hard injector solenoids pull to lift a stuck injector pintle. At Gateway BMW i virtually never failed at starting a bike that came in on a tow truck due to stuck injectors by simply hooking up an oversized boost box or tossing in a more powerful battery. Thats just one example, but, a battery that will crank stronger longer will avoid a huge number of long walks and tows.

    For the F800GS I recommend an Antigravity 12 cell if your daily "adventure" is to starbucks and a 16 cell if your going to ride in the winter or adventure ride away from humanity or in extreme cold. For the R1200GS/ADV the 16 cell for starbucks and 20 cell for adventure.

    I also have enough experience testing Shorai as well as data on failures from 3 dealerships to recommend you NOT buy them. Sure an LFX36 will start an R80G/S or anything else in BMW's line-up because this is light duty for this battery, but for smaller sized units, empirical data I have observed, Shorai has well above average defect and failure ratios. If your using them light duty the odds are probably 9 out of 10 that you will be fine but if your going on an adventure or are going to spend the big bucks, why not spend the same dollar amount on a battery from a manufacture whos smaller highly stressed batteries DO hold up well!

    earthX, the jury is still out. I am testing them and so far I LIKE them. pound for pound, CCA rating for CCA rating, list price for list price they blow the doors off of Shorai and compete neck and neck with Antigravity. They may be better or worse then Antigravity, time will tell, but you certainly will not be buying anything less then an excellent battery with Antigravity regardless of how the earthX performs. Stay tuned for another month for harder data with earthX

    EarthX uses A123 cells in their smallest battery and prismatic in their larger sizes, so both the people that earlier stated that they used cylindrical and prismatic were right and both were wrong lol. It depends on the size earthX battery you are talking about.

    JRWooden, my stator fix is sill holding up in both bikes I fabbed it into, though 2 is a pretty small test group.

    _CY_ I will be reading your test results AND duplicating them :) because more data is better and I LIKE data :D

    To the guy that built a BMS that disconnects his battery, for the love of all thats sacred CHANGE YOUR REGULATOR! There isn't a capacitor thats big enough to damp like a battery unless you tow it behind on 4 wheels!

    If you are determined to shove a square peg into a round hole then affix a bunch of bulbs with tungsten filaments and run them right at where they barely glow....................................... L and C is not the answer because the stator puts out variable frequencies and you may build yourself a tuned circuit that make things really exciting at a specific engine RPM. On a carburated bike with little electronics a cap would sort of help but NOT on a modern bike with electronics!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    Okay, 4 hours of sleep then must fix a few dozen bikes. Back soon, I hope.

    I missed you all.
  11. WayneC

    WayneC Long timer

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    Welcome back Joel, hope all the hard work pays off, we have missed your myth busting and analysis
  12. Bli55

    Bli55 -

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    JoelWisman, oh how I missed your experiments!! :bow
    Just last night I studied the whole thread and remember wishing you would carry on with the envistigation, because there's so much more... :*sip*

    I mean, not only the aspects of your testing such as cold performance, chargers etc, but the LiFePO4 field itself is developing rapidly, with new names and products appearing.

    I'd really appreciate if you could clarify a few points...

    Imagine I have a bike with iron phosphate and a voltmeter.
    Riding along, would probably see ~14.2-14.6 V
    Imagine then some eqipment gets switched on - lights, heated gear etc...
    Voltage might drop to ~13.0-13.5 on the voltmeter...
    Does that mean - battery is discharging as the alternator is not able to support the consumers.
    - battery is not discharging, as the alternator output is sufficient, but WILL get out of balance due to lack of current passing through it?

    In other words, what minimum voltage would you suggest needs to be maintained (by regulating additional power consumption) in the system when riding as to ensure the cells are charged AND balanced?
    :deal

    Why would the starter get damaged operating at lower than optimal speed/voltage?
    Or is this only applicable to certain types of starter engagement?

    I have a charger with one knob controlling the current (0 -10A), but obviously is i set it to, say, 1A, and connect to a poorly charged battery, it will only need a small overvoltage to maintain that amp.
    As the battery gets charged, my charger ups the voltage to maintain this set current, until it reaches 15V.

    Do you know if this is a what you call manual charger and if its suitable, or do I need to search for one with a set max. charging voltage of 14. what ????

    Thanks for your time on this topic!! :clap
  13. _cy_

    _cy_ Long timer

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    Joel.. welcome back!!!

    in an effort to consolidate hard won data and since your methodology of subjecting test battery to 200 amp continuous loads for 30 seconds, followed by two shorter intervals was spot on. it made sense to use same testing methodology.

    internal LiFePO4 cylindrical cells due to mechanical rigidity has always enjoyed higher sustained discharge rates. disadvantage of series/parallel batteries are if/when one cell goes bad, another parallel stack of cells will reverse discharge into now lower voltage stack.

    more cells means greater potential for cells to become unbalanced. especially if no provisions are made for a balance charger to periodically even up cells.

    this is where Earth-X really shines .. all their batteries comes with an internal BMS. their smaller batteries have tested sustained 200 amp loads (using your testing methodology) substantially better than Shorai of equal size.

    IMHO to overcome problem of mfg charts listing LiFePO4 batteries way too small. there should be two charts ...

    1. one chart for normal duty for folks that mostly rides in warm weather from home base.

    2. second chart for severe duty for folks that take their adventure bikes to parts unknown, camping out in extreme cold conditions, etc.

    mfg practice of calling an 4.6AH (actual) an 18AH PB/EQ or lead acid equivalent is down right confusing to most folks.

    there's been developments that I cannot share yet, on a BMS that actually disconnect main current in event of dead short.
    @Joel your input has been sorely missed ... hope you have time to stick around... congrats on your new endeavors!!
  14. JoelWisman

    JoelWisman Long timer

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    A voltage below 13.8 will certainly mean the battery is discharging, however as voltage lowers further, current output from the stator will increase slightly. This is due to the efficiency of magnetic flux lines creating electromotive force and is beyond the scope this thread for me to explain (it would take me cracking open text books and typing a novel) but if any electrical engineers want to take a crack at it, be my guest.

    In round approximations, a stator can put out perhaps 1% more current at 13 volts then at 14. Further purely resistive loads such as heated gear and incandescent lighting will draw less current as voltage falls, so though you are likely not charging at voltages below 14, you may not be discharging the battery, at least not completely but simply drawing the battery down some until rising stator output and lowering resistive draw come to equilibrium. OR if the current draw is truly excessive, yes your going to run your battery dead as you ride. So the answer is: MAYBE. Keep riding and if the voltage keeps lowering, you will have your answer as the voltage falls below 10.2 volts and the fuel injection shuts down lol.

    A number of things affect cells getting out of balance.

    1: Manufacturing differences. Cells from the manufacture may have slightly different internal self discharge rates, differing capacities and differing internal
    resistance. All of this is a matter of the manufacture quality control and this has far and away the largest effect on a batteries tendency to go "out of balance".

    A123 has great quality control! Further battery manufactures that care carefully test each and every cell before assembling. Since there is typically considerable time between A123 making a cell and a battery manufacture putting those cells into a battery, super accurate 5 digit voltage tests will reveal any cells with different internal discharge rates. Great manufactures test for and exclude these outlier cells and always complete a battery with cells from the same manufacturing lot.

    2: Cells at different temperatures will have different internal resistance and will go out of balance quicker. This is an issue of application. In the F800GS the basic module heat sink is pressed against one side of the battery and the cool air box the other. This is not helpful for keeping a battery in-ballance.

    3: usage: If a battery spends most of its time fully charged rather then deep cycling it will age slower. Actually it will age slower yet if it's always at 50% state of charge but thats not practical. Use a battery heavily and it will age quicker and slightly different manufacturing tolerances will show up quicker.
    This is the way of the world but another reason to size your battery large. Not only will it have more overhead for emergencies but it will age slower and last longer

    4: Lastly there is a very slight tendency that SOME chemistries of LiFePO4 have to self balance. It only occurs when the battery is fully charged and a regulated voltage continues to be applied. This effect is measurable with expensive test equipment in the range of 14.3 to 14.7 volts. This effect is very slight, so....

    No your bike drawing on the battery at times will not make it out of balance any quicker as long as it does come up to at least 14.3 volts for considerable periods of time, but will age the battery quicker.

    This ONLY applies to starters that use a solenoid to ram a pinion into interface with a ring gear. Neither the Ftwins or singles are damaged by under voltage starting, the R series boxer ARE DAMAGED by under voltage starting.


    Manual can mean quite a few things when speaking of chargers. Your charger is specifically classified as a "constant current charger with 15 volt cutoff". It is awesome and I wish I still had one, but is totally unsuitable for charging LiFePO4 or AGM batteries. A charger for LiFePO4 MUST cut off no higher then 14/7 volts and the industry is moving towards a cutoff of 14.5. Also it is not particularly desirable to keep applying regulated voltage after you reach, say 14.5 volts but better to disconnect completely and monitor and recharge if the LiFePO4 battery gets below say 13.5 volts.
    This: http://www.tecmate.com/u_optimate_lithium.php is one charger that is doing all the right things according to current theory and evidence.
  15. JRWooden

    JRWooden Long timer

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    Joel:

    Congratulations on the promotion to service manager, with no disrespect to whoever you replaced ... they brought a knife to a gun fight in terms of keeping their job with you standing around :lol3

    Likewise, congrats on becoming an owner of the business, well deserved! :clap

    Jim

    PS: Thanks for thinking of us Beemer guys, I have 30K miles on my bike now and am wondering what spare parts I need to pack for a 6K mile trip that I'm developing for this summer ...
    Maybe an aftermarket fuel pump & stator,
    Maybe just my mastercard ...
  16. _cy_

    _cy_ Long timer

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    @joel ... you have PM
  17. JoelWisman

    JoelWisman Long timer

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    #1 ME, I need a vacation :)
    #2 Techron concentrate fuel system cleaner.
    #3 A battery if your still using a stock one or Yuasa YTX14.
    #4 Tubes and patches
    #5 Aligator clips and some temporary way to get power direct from battery to fuel pump (with Techron and the ability to power the pump direct from battery and perhaps even jog it back and fourth i've never come across a BMW fuel pump I couldn't milk another few thousand miles from and usually more).
    #6 spare injectors.
    #7 head light bulb.
    #8 possibly a damn stator and cover gasket or back up battery.
    #9 oil and coolant.
    It's a 650 if memory serves so u wont likely need spare wheel bearings but do check them before you go. Actually u may want to have the bike professionally checked from stern to stem by someone good at such. I could do it if you want, So could Ryan at Gateway but Shannon probably wouldn't let him and just assign a noob lol.
    #10 spare links and masters as well as chain breaker for chain.
    #11 A go over all the important electrical connections with contact protector/enhancer, NOT to be confused for dielectric grease. The only kind I know of that works is called RID-OX by techspray. It's expensive and has an MSDS with 3's and 4's but works great and Ftwins are starting to need it in a number of places.
    #12 ME lmao
  18. JRWooden

    JRWooden Long timer

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    Thanks Joel!

    Re #1 / #12 the trip isn't planned yet, but if I get near St. Louie I sure as hell owe you dinner and a few drinks at the very least!!!!:deal

    #2 Techron - check! Plan to carry MSR fuel bottle full of it (well labeled)

    #3 Battery - new Deka just installed

    #4 tubless tire plugger & compressor - check!

    #5 have friend at local dealership holding a dead FPC module for me to salvage connector from ... and will have a rig with me to bypass PFC & jog pump. I had not thought about jogging it back to life ... so will plan on that and likely NOT carrying spare pump ... even though a good source appears to has been found: http://www.highflowfuel.com/i-8927843-new-intank-efi-fuel-pump-bmw-f800gs-2006-2010.html

    #6 ... crap ... injectors - hadn't considered that :cry but will ...

    #7 bulb check - have one in the toolkit wrapped in cotton & stuck in pill bottle

    #8 stator - I have spare Electrosport on the way to my house now, plan to inspect mine before I leave ... really don't want to lug a spare, but ... thinking about it... may leave it on workbench to have wife overnite it to me as "plan B"

    #9 yeah.......... trying to think of a compact way to carry a bit of both oil and coolant ... I can see already that I'll be kinda cramped for space being gone for 3-wks and expecting 100F in the valley and 40F going over the passes ....

    #10 yeah ... will be buying new chain before I go and will get a spare link & take breaker.

    #11 had not heard of RID-OX ... I've been using a drop or two of Mobil One synthetic lubricant (not motor oil - this was a special product that is now discontinued damit...) but will scare up some RID-OX

    #12 ... See #1 ... you service manager/owner types are probably going to need to vacation in South America during the (North American) winter eh? :wink:

    I have F658GS but will be installing new tires and will for sure check all bearings and run around the bike with the torque wrench and etc.


    BACK to #9: THANKS for offer to check over my bike!
    I'd pay you or Ryan double if I get to watch :lol3
    If I am going to get close to St. Louie I'll PM you! I hope Mandy & Ryan are doing well!


    My damn water pump, which was replaced with newer style under warranty for coolant leak, is now weeping a fair amount of oil... I wonder if new o-rings will fix that?

    Otherwise I think I' doing pretty well....

    mmmmmmmmm maybe a new camchain tensioner ....
    Oh ... news there too - BMW has approved 15W-50 for the twins.
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mso-para-margin-bottom:.0001pt; mso-pagination:widow-orphan; font-size:11.0pt; font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"; mso-ascii-font-family:Calibri; mso-ascii-theme-font:minor-latin; mso-fareast-font-family:"Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-theme-font:minor-fareast; mso-hansi-font-family:Calibri; mso-hansi-theme-font:minor-latin; mso-bidi-font-family:"Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-theme-font:minor-bidi;} </style> <![endif]-->have started using it and it really quiets the cold-start timing chain death-rattle much quieter and much shorter amount of time ... perhaps the 15W is just thick enough to not bleed back out of the tensioner when the bike is shut down .....
  19. ScienceOfDirt

    ScienceOfDirt U-Boat Rider

    Joined:
    May 10, 2010
    Oddometer:
    1,774
    Location:
    Snowbelt/Rustbelt of Northeast Ohio
    Just curious if you have tried DeoxIT from Caig? It's what I'm using currently for my electrical gremlins. I've seen RID-OX, but never picked any up because what I was using worked. I guess I'll have to get a can to try now.
  20. JoelWisman

    JoelWisman Long timer

    Joined:
    Apr 22, 2009
    Oddometer:
    1,392
    Location:
    STL, MO, USA
    Alright, Just finishing some load tests on all sizes of Antigravity from 4 cell through 20 as well as the ETX18 and 24 earthX. Also been playing with a lab freezer so I can freeze batteries down to whatever specific temperature desired and as always a lead/acid battery thrown into the mix for perspective.

    Other then time, any other tests anyone can think of to differentiate these very different batteries? All of them are blowing the doors off of Shorai but I'm having difficulty figuring out how to simulate durability beyond the acid test of seeing what failure rates are in a few years.

    FYI until I can get videos and graphs up know that two things are obvious. earthX can really put out a lot of current for it's AH above and beyond any other battery I have tested to date and also it self heats and ramps up current output quicker then any other LiFePO4 battery I have tested to date.

    _cy_ I have tested the balance and AH capacity of every battery I have tested to date down to the individual cell and both at low rates and high rates to get at the pekurret, or however you spell that word and found that despite a great body of writing on the web to the contrary, LiFePO4 exhibits a considerable pekurette, meaning the AH out is heavily dependent on the rate of discharge.

    So, thoughts anyone? What can we do to get at which of these battery qualities are best before finding out the hard way???