Whats the latest on no-stop

Discussion in 'Trials' started by 2feetdown, Apr 10, 2014.

  1. 2feetdown

    2feetdown Been here awhile

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    I just found this forum a couple of months ago so maybe this has already been talked about.

    I see where El trial just ran in California was ran no-stop. I know the has been much debate on stop. I don't like posting negative but i have a fear that this will divide a sport that needs to grow. I know while I personalty would benefit from no-stop due to my limited skills I also like to see the upper class ride and use there skills. When i watched my first world round I couldn't wait to see all the big stuff they rode and ended up enjoying more just watching how they stopped hopped and got set up to ride the big rocks
    I intend to ride sections every weekend either ones me and a couple of buddies want to set up and ride or at an event, I am torn between the two a lot of times. Some of the guys i ride with can hop a bit and can stop and balance for way longer than i can but i wouldn't dream of changing the rules so I can do better and if i did they would find someone less selfish to ride with.
    I never dreamed that that my old toilet stool would be outlawed that my trials bike would be considered a polluter vrs a racing bike and cant be 2 stroke period(they came to there senses on that at least for know). There is many government regulations that seem ridiculous but for local clubs to limit whether a rider can stop or not beats those hands down.
    #1
  2. Dorian

    Dorian huge carbon footprint

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    :lurk
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  3. laser17

    laser17 Been here awhile

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    The no stop people have there heads down and are insisting its working while repeating the same tired propaganda.

    The Stop allowed people are still outraged over the change and are still waiting for market data statistics that drove this stick in the eye to the majority of trials riders.

    Meanwhile, Stop allowed organizations are starting to appear.

    I really hope that the NATC ASKS THE RIDERS what they want before making any changes.
    #3
  4. motobene

    motobene Motoing for 44 years

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    I hope the NATC will read this and truly understand it. My thoughts:

    Let's call this directly what it is: pause prohibition. No stop doesn't quite describe what is lost, and it certainly doesn't claim to gain anything. While rules are important, all of us can think of silly rules that end up causing more harm than good, despite the initial good intention. And once implemented, bad rules can take a lot of years to get rid of.

    The bottom line is that many of us don’t like years of developed skills converted by writ into instant full section failures. Those of you in favor of pause prohibition, please consider that no one is stopping you from riding any section anywhere without pauses. But supporting or imposing pause prohibition on the rest of us requires that you take away something we have gained at great cost. Leaving well enough alone costs you nothing, but implementing pause prohibition costs us, a lot. On the one hand, you ride as YOU choose. On the other, you prevent us from riding as we choose. We call that theft.
    <?xml:namespace prefix = "o" ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:eek:ffice:eek:ffice" /><o:p> </o:p>
    We hoped the FIM would rescind the ‘French (Thierry Michaud) Imposition’ of pause prohibition for 2014, after the 1<SUP>st</SUP> year of protests, but sadly, and despite the expressed dislike of the rule by the majority, they stubbornly persisted in 2014 in outdoor competitions (indoor is not a viable sport without pauses... hmm). This same FIM puts out videos chopping rides into milliseconds with pumping music. I’d like to think it’s for the chopped-up attention spans of youth, but what’s missing from a sustained look these days?
    <o:p> </o:p>
    We also hoped countries down to the local levels would summarily ignore the FIM and continue with pause allowed. It’s not hard to intuit the negative effects of whacking riders with 5s for pausing, either because they can, hope to without points, or they use pauses to ride safer. And there’s that obvious problem of making sections harder to judge fairly. How much of a pause is a real pause, really?

    And where is the real need for this rule? The data to support it? Or even the will of the majority?
    <o:p> </o:p><o:p> </o:p>
    There are already natural forces in place that resist pausing. N additional rule is needed. Riders struggle for years to avoid involuntary pauses from not looking ahead, poor line selection, ‘whiskey throttle’ or hyperactive clutching. The natural spanking force is simply more points taken.

    Imposing pause prohibition denies the rest of us the voluntary pause. Consider safety. This 59-year-old Senior Expert/Expert uses the tool of pausing precisely to avoid injury. I know myself. I’m more dangerous to myself if pausing will result in a 5. Pause prohibition creates a psychological sword of Damocles, a 5-avoidance blow torch to the brain and ass. That WILL push competitive types like me into continuing at time when I should not. One of the big positives of trials is long-term sustainability. Don't steal away one of my critical tools, or I may deem the risk greater than the reward.

    Some may argue that pause prohibition will make sections easier, and that somehow will have new riders falling from the sky. I challenge you to determine what percentage of sections can already be ridden no pause if a rider chooses to ride them that way. I'd venture it's over 95%. It may not be safer, but it can be done. So where are the thousands of riders if pausing was such a big problem?

    Many of us don’t want pause prohibition turning our acquired skill into 100% section failures. And regarding section difficulty, if that is more the problem, shame on any one or any club, that values hammering riders to a pulp. And that too is self correcting. You club will shrink and you'll get a clue.
    <o:p> </o:p>
    So again, where is the real-world justification for this rule when pauses are both naturally resisted and beneficial?

    And there's the good-old-days argument. Sentimentality for days past days when it took a gorilla arm to pull in a clutch isn’t adequate justification for pause prohibition locally.

    As for The Michaud Imposition at the top outdoor level, we're into the second year now. Where is the objective data on rider participation and event attendance? Has trials been saved yet?

    I caution all you influential folks not to jump into this. Experiment, fine, but don't just dive in and impose stuff on us we don't want. Trials is already barely alive. We're delicate. Take care before nudging us closer to the grave.
    #4
  5. motobene

    motobene Motoing for 44 years

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    Please someone who knows, please pass this thread (and anything else out there) on to those involved in the NATC. I don't personally know many of them.
    <?xml:namespace prefix = "o" ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:eek:ffice:eek:ffice" /><o:p></o:p>
    Let's call this directly what it is: pause prohibition. No stop doesn't quite describe what is lost, and it certainly doesn't claim to gain anything. While rules are important, all of us can think of silly rules that end up causing more harm than good, despite the initial good intention. And once implemented, bad rules can take a lot of years to get rid of.<o:p></o:p>
    <o:p></o:p>
    The bottom line is that many of us don’t like years of developed skills converted by writ into instant full section failures. Those of you in favor of pause prohibition, please consider that no one is stopping you from riding any section anywhere without pauses. But supporting or imposing pause prohibition on the rest of us requires that you take away something we have gained at great cost. Leaving well enough alone costs you nothing, but implementing pause prohibition costs us, a lot. On the one hand, you ride as YOU choose. On the other, you prevent us from riding as we choose. We call that theft.<o:p></o:p>
    <o:p> </o:p>
    We hoped the FIM would rescind the ‘French (Thierry Michaud) Imposition’ of pause prohibition for 2014, after the 1<SUP>st</SUP> year of protests, but sadly, and despite the expressed dislike of the rule by the majority, they stubbornly persisted in 2014 in outdoor competitions (indoor is not a viable sport without pauses... hmm). This same FIM puts out videos chopping rides into milliseconds with pumping music. I’d like to think it’s for the chopped-up attention spans of youth, but what’s missing from a sustained look these days?<o:p></o:p>
    <o:p> </o:p>
    We also hoped countries down to the local levels would summarily ignore the FIM and continue with pause allowed. It’s not hard to intuit the negative effects of whacking riders with 5s for pausing, either because they can, hope to without points, or because they use pauses to ride safer. <o:p></o:p>
    <o:p> </o:p>
    And there’s that obvious problem of making sections harder to judge fairly. How much of a pause is a real pause, really?<o:p></o:p>
    <o:p></o:p>
    Where is the real need for this rule? The data to support it? Or even the will of the majority?<o:p></o:p>
    <o:p> </o:p>
    There are already natural forces in place that resist pausing. No additional rule is needed. Riders struggle for years to avoid involuntary pauses from not looking ahead, poor line selection, ‘whiskey throttle’ or hyperactive clutching. The natural spanking force is simply more points taken. <o:p></o:p>
    <o:p></o:p>
    Imposing pause prohibition denies the rest of us the voluntary pause. Consider safety. This 59-year-old Senior Expert/Expert uses the tool of pausing precisely to avoid injury. I know myself. I’m more dangerous to myself if pausing will result in a 5. Pause prohibition creates a psychological sword of Damocles, a 5-avoidance blow torch to the brain and ass. That WILL push competitive types like me into continuing at times when I should not. One of the big positives of trials is long-term sustainability. Don't steal away one of my critical tools, or I may deem the risk greater than the reward.<o:p></o:p>
    <o:p></o:p>
    Some may argue that pause prohibition will make sections easier, and that somehow we’ll have new riders falling from the sky. I challenge you to determine what percentage of sections can already be ridden no pause if a rider chooses to ride them that way. I'd venture it's over 95%. It may not be safer that way, but it can be done. <o:p></o:p>
    <o:p> </o:p>
    Many of us don’t want pause prohibition turning our acquired skill into 100% section failures. And regarding section difficulty, if that is more the problem, shame on any one or any club that hammering riders to a pulp. That too is self correcting and doesn’t need a rule. Clubs that hammer, shrink.<o:p></o:p>
    <o:p> </o:p>
    So again, where is the real-world justification for this rule when pauses are both naturally resisted and at time quite beneficial, even satisfying? <o:p></o:p>
    <o:p></o:p>
    And there's the good-old-days argument. Sentimentality for days past days, when it took a gorilla arm to pull in a clutch and cranks could be used as anchors isn’t adequate justification for pause prohibition for modern trials. <o:p></o:p>
    <o:p></o:p>
    As for The Michaud Imposition at the top outdoor level, we're into the second year now. Where is the objective data on rider participation and event attendance? Has trials been saved yet? Let’s say the objective data show no change. In that case the change has been a failure because we’re fighting about it, and there are enough eternal threats to keep us busy a long time.<o:p></o:p>
    <o:p></o:p>
    I caution all you influential folks not to jump into this. Experiment, fine, but don't just follow FIM and impose stuff a significant percentage of us – likely the majority - don't want. We don’t need any more self-inflicted wounds.
    #5
  6. motobene

    motobene Motoing for 44 years

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    Sometimes the forum software brings up a blank page when I try to edit a posting. I think it has a problem with text brought in from Word.

    Sorry for the redundant postings. The second post with smaller font is the latest. I hope later I can nuke the first and fix the font in the second.

    Yes, I'm passionate about this issue, so pardon my detail. But in this case I feel justified in being a bit 'political.' It's the theft angle that gets to me.
    #6
  7. laser17

    laser17 Been here awhile

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    Very, Very well said Bene. :clap - Prohibition just doesn't work!

    I am one of the people who really doesn't get affected - I will hop around sometimes when im in trouble, but other than that dont need to hop given the Int level I ride at. Many, many times i was convinced a section couldnt be cleaned w/o hoping, along comes a talented rider who makes it look easy.

    I feel bad for those who put in the work to obtain the needed skills, but my personal desire "for stop" is alittle self centered. I enjoy watching the good riders get behind in the clock and endurocross the easier parts of the section. Wicked flashy moves! They REALLY need to ban the word dynamic from being used when describing no stop, because watching someone slowly creep around the section is BORING as HELL to watch!

    My mother used to have an expression that you dont throw the baby out with the bathwater. I really think thats what the FIM did when a few tweaks would have been much better and much less obtrusive to riders rights.
    #7
  8. 2feetdown

    2feetdown Been here awhile

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    Very well said motobeen
    I am glad someone better versed than me to respond as i am a poor one to start this thread. However if we would invoke punctuation prohibition then i might come closer
    #8
  9. laser17

    laser17 Been here awhile

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    Dynamic/ Exciting - note how the riders buy time by going fast in the easier parts.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OM2MFZqWDKk

    Good, but not as exciting, and yes edited to cut out the slow creep along parts...yet the politicians use the word dynamic when describing there "vision". I say vision, but it more closely represents a hallucination.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9yW-Uk7BFhc


    Now - what sport do you think is more attractive. I dont care how many times TM insists its no stop, because, In this case, the king has no cloths.
    #9
  10. PSchrauber

    PSchrauber Been here awhile

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    I'am following trials since 1979 all in all the stop was latly abused in modern trials as a stop with one foot down was rated with only one point. Trials was esthablished in 1909 as a trial to keep the feet up while going through rough terrain. While riding through the section footing means a penelty (1 - 3) as not to finish (5) or even not to try (10 points), these are the main rules and should not be changed.

    The intention and also the accentuation of the dynamic's is completly OK.

    It looks very cheap when a rider instead of doing a close turn, try to hop around the corner or try to correct a wrong chosen track by hopping around.

    My main criticism of the stop and hop is the possibility of the correction of incorrectly selected tracks, that's what brakes down real trial in the true sense.
    #10
  11. motobene

    motobene Motoing for 44 years

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    You represent the fundamentalist camp, and you also ride a vintage bike. I don't mind your vintage rules being based in the past, but please don't force your world to be mine :ear

    I too respect the traditions and fundamentals of the sport, but those from 1909 probably considered themselves as riding 'real' trials. They would be shocked at your alien modern vintage bike and your crazy modern 1978 rules. Perhaps they might say you are not riding 'real' trials?

    It works both ways.
    #11
  12. motobene

    motobene Motoing for 44 years

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    Oh gosh....

    One thing I didn't think so much about until watching these videos is how no pause creates a frenetic riding style. The rider has the blow torch on his mind and on his ass to always keep going. That is indeed not pretty at all. I wonder what the riders say about the experience?

    Thanks all for your comments.
    #12
  13. Old Geezer

    Old Geezer Been here awhile

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    +1
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  14. Gordo83

    Gordo83 Been here awhile

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    One thing's for sure. It will be hard on checkers to decide quickly whether they saw a slow pause or a stop.
    #14
  15. jonnyc21

    jonnyc21 Trials Ninja

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    +2

    For me, when the rider has the space for the turn and they hop it exposes that they picked the wrong line and shows a possible weakness rather than looks cheap. For me this helps me see which riders really have the skills and witch do not.

    Just my 2 cents...
    #15
  16. 2feetdown

    2feetdown Been here awhile

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    I think it was about 1940 when they started penalties for putting your foot down. Next we will be going back to 1909 rules and just ride around and if you finish your a winner and make the sport super easy so grandma can ride.

    Lets see trials is suffering especially in the youth ranks and lets take the spectacular out of it use rules that grandpa had with his triumph back 50 years ago that will draw them in.

    I too respect vintage people but the day a threw my leg over a 97 montesa the thought of owning a ty or a bultaco forever left me. If there was a vintage event nearby and i had vintage bike and no one to ride modern trials with me i would give it a go but i damn sure wouldnt change the rules and say we need to hop like the modern boys do.

    Regulations are not the answer, I can remember 10 years ago the solution to producing a world rider from usa was makem them all ride 125s untill 18 because stupid European laws cant distinguish between a crotch rocket and a trials bike. We could have took some of the money we spend on our bikes and gear and rvs and kicked in a few bucks to help some kid who wasnt too lazy to practice and maybe we would have accomplished something. But then again the deck is stacked against us the FIM makes it about impossible for a usa round so let them do there non stop for a year or two or three until they come to there senses and we will ride American trials and our champions can preform the difficult task of stopping hopping and setting up and we can both have world champions and if one of there guys want to come over here and travel and pay he can be World Champions of non Probationary trials.
    I like that word Prohibition we tried it in the twentys and learned are lesson not to impose our ideas on others. We tried non stop before and imposed ideas and here we go again.
    #16
  17. motobene

    motobene Motoing for 44 years

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    Yikes... another level of ambiguity.

    I have described no stop as 'pause prohibition', but neither are really accurate. A pause is a stop is a stop of course... (Mr. Ed can make a song of it). The riders are pausing all over the place, and thus stopping. Early last year I saw Raga get 5'd for what those guys were doing all over in the British Championship round.

    So it's evolved more accurately to 'bit too much pause prohibition.' Since it's frenetic and happening fast, I'd not want to be the judge.

    What'll end up happening, because few people want a big scene, is that unless the pause is really pronounced, they'll let it go. But how much is really pronounced? And it still makes for Frenetic higher-level trials.
    #17
  18. Rockcat

    Rockcat LDA

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    Rules change all the time. I can understand lobbying for what you think is best, but if they change they change. When the National Enduro rules changed a couple of years ago, some people thought it was the end of the world.

    Argue for your point, but are you really going to stop if the rules go back?
    #18
  19. 2feetdown

    2feetdown Been here awhile

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    If you poll riders here and abroad i think you will find 1/3 prefer no stop 2/3 prefer stopping yet the FIM dictates and the minority wins maybe i can get past that

    Limiting skills and practicing that been going on for 20 or more years and just throwing them out the door maybe I can get past that.

    Driving 300 miles and losing because some checker(s) gives a clean to a local club rider because he paused and gives a 5 to the guy who drove 300 miles because he stopped (maybe he just made a mistake no way of telling) might be the incentive to stay home and ride enjoying being where everybody gets along and has a good time guess we will see what happens or maybe we wont if we just stick to what works. If no stop works why did it go away so quickly when they tried it before? Could one reason be impossible to score?
    #19
  20. lineaway

    lineaway Long timer

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    Hate to tell you guys, when I scored the world round last year it worked. They have many other rules included besides no-stop. Have you even noticed the indoor rule changes. I know what they are and that`s getting very close to no-stop also. So who here is paying attention.
    The very best world round I ever attended was in 1990 Globe AZ. No pussy all day dabs there. Those men could hop them heavy ass bikes all day long without a dab.
    Now if you want to try a trials that is cut and dry without any bull try a gate trials. We just tried our first last weekend. It was a blast since we rode in groups. You have to clean a section to get points. High score wins. We just did six sections. The winner had 163 points. We had thirty riders. I think low score(Last) had like 5 points. Our highest point section had 14 pts available. Just think one dab you just lost out on a possible 14 pts. Very tough mentally. I did not take a dab that day!:lol3
    #20