Why only do one?

Discussion in 'Old's Cool' started by photomd, Mar 23, 2008.

  1. photomd

    photomd Been here awhile

    Joined:
    Sep 29, 2007
    Oddometer:
    776
    Location:
    The Land of Cotton (SC)
    Why only tear one bike apart at a time? Why not throw them all together and see what happens? Welp, with a little mismanagement. It's pretty easy to be in that position.

    It started pretty innocently. Ya see, several years ago, I bought a R100RS with thoughts of rebuild. First I wanted to ride it and see if we geled. I bought it at a fire sale price and started working: rebuilt the forks with new springs, new fork tubes, o-rings and upper triple clamp. Next came the carbs. Complete rebuilds netted several MPG and relaible starting. I lubed the tranny input splines, installed a new rear shock, new tires and started riding. For a bike with 98,000 miles, she was a great winter bike.

    [​IMG]

    I did my homework and things seem great. Compression was 138-140, leakdown was about 2-3% and it used about 250cc's of oil per 1000 miles. I also didn't hear any cam chain rattle. I would hear the valves clatter very mildly, but no rattle and the 'S' mark was rock steady while checking timing. The valves didn't move from my initial setting. It shifted great. Everything seemed peachy.

    Then I started looking for another project. I blew out my knee on the dirt bike and had a week to sit around and shop after having my ACL put back together. Then Farmer Fred posts this beautiful Guzzi cafe bike. I've always loved British cafe bike, especially Tritons with big alloy tanks. :raabia However I'm not sure I can turn a British cafe into a reliable summer bike. The Guzzi seems like a good platform for a relaible classic rider.

    [​IMG]

    Fast foward one year and I find this 79 1000SP. It's only got 17000 miles, has sat, is covered with oil and dirt, but has good compression, shifts nicely and feels like a solid bike. So with the airhead sorted, or so I thought, I buy another project.

    [​IMG]

    I get the Guzzi home and start the disassembly and start hanging around this place. I'm labeling wiring, bagging parts and snapping pictures. Everything is going well. I order up the tank and seat and keep digging into the new project.

    [​IMG]

    Once I get the wiring labeled and removed, I dig into the forks: trash! The cartridges lose their fluid with one night on their sides. The tubes have dings and the paint is faded. So what's to do? Strip the paint and start replacing parts. :D

    [​IMG]

    Thanks to Curvy's suggestions, a soft wire wheel chucked into a drill, stuff starts to look shiny.

    [​IMG]

    Then I installed the old fork tubes, the clipons and the new headlight. I was getting ready to start mocking up a dash for speedo and tach.

    [​IMG]

    Then I heard it. It wasn't subtle. It was distinct rattle. I pulled the airhead into the garage and set up the fans. Listening to the engine revealed the rattle was coming from the front. I pulled out the strobe light and the mark was definitely blurry as compared to earlier.

    So the plan was to check out the chain, which means I have to pull the exhaust. Seemed simple enough. One nut comes right off.

    [​IMG]

    The second one...er...not so much.

    [​IMG]

    So now I'm into pulling one head on a bike with 106,000 miles. I might as well pull the second as both push rod tubes weep and I'd like to make it reliable. I might as well have them checked while the bike is down for the summer...it's my winter daily rider.

    I'm also going to pull the tranny. The rubber boot between the swingarm and tranny is showing signs of rot and the clutch engagement is getting narrow. So pulling the tranny will let me take a look at the clutch.

    [​IMG]

    So why this long post? Welp...I've got questions. And as I go along, I'm sure I'll have more. Fortunately/Unfortunately I had my appendix removed Friday morning, so I've had a little time to think about what needs to happen next, but I need help.

    For you airhead gurus...

    What else would you check? Rear main seal? Gasket at the oil pump? Universal joint? Drive shaft bearings? One thing that has me concerned is replacing the crank sprocket for the cam chain. I think heating it in oil and cooling the crank with ice makes sense, but can I gently tap it home with a socket and hammer without damaging the crank bearings?

    For the Guzzi gurus...

    How the heck do you remove the VIN tag for powder coating? I'll probably send the tranny off to be checked and go through the clutch as it was a bit notchy. I'm sure I'll have more questions.

    Thanks for any help y'all can provide. I'm looking forward to lots of quality garage time. :clap
    #1
  2. Nessman

    Nessman Evangelical Atheist

    Joined:
    Feb 3, 2004
    Oddometer:
    2,258
    Location:
    Everett, WA
    I just drill the rivets off of the VIN tag, a few pop rivets and she's back on.

    Where did you find the SP??
    #2
  3. Uncle Ernie

    Uncle Ernie Long timer

    Joined:
    Jul 3, 2007
    Oddometer:
    3,978
    Location:
    Asheville NC
    I've just decided that paint is almost as good as powder coating and if you're anal-retentive about looks- good paint has a better, deeper shine.

    One schmo's opinion, but I'm getting my next frame painted.
    #3
  4. PGK

    PGK Adventurer

    Joined:
    Dec 3, 2007
    Oddometer:
    24
    I'm a big fan of leaving well enough alone if something isn't causing trouble, so unless the rear main seal is leaking i wouldn't touch it, same with the oil pump o-ring. I would leave the flywheel in place and not risk the crank shifting, especially if you've got the timing cover off at the same time. If you're worried about the clutch it's easy enough to replace the friction plate and the pressure plates. Make sure the input shaft splines are in good shape, lube them and put it back together.

    I don't think you'd have any problems re-installing the timing gear with a little differential temperature. A few taps with a big socket and a deadblow hammer won't hurt, but I'm not even sure they would be necessary, those slip on fairly easy. It's a shame that isn't a pre-'81, I have some double-row timing gears I'd sell you. Unused even.

    It looks like your problems with the R100 aren't that big of a deal. Send the heads off, might as well check the piston/cylinder and connecting rod dimensions while the heads are off. Hell, go 1050.

    p.s. you could have gotten away with just slightly loosening the exhaust nuts, moving the crossover clamp and rotating the headers a few degrees to clear the bottom timing cover screws. doing that might have saved you the costly thread repair, and would still have let you access the pushrod tube seals. just a thought.
    #4
  5. photomd

    photomd Been here awhile

    Joined:
    Sep 29, 2007
    Oddometer:
    776
    Location:
    The Land of Cotton (SC)
    Thanks for y'all's help.

    I would paint the frame, except I'd like something pretty tough. Although I'd like this to be a pretty bike, I also want it to be usable...in the true "spirit" of a what I perceive to be a cafe bike: stripped of all non essential item with a patina of road use. I'm in hopes this will be a daily rider locally. I don't think this is gonna be to the level that I see Curvy's bikes. They are gorgous. It'll just be a usable, nice looking classic.

    I wish I could have loosened the exhaust nuts and rotated the exhaust, but both were completely frozen. Three days of penetrating oil, heat and light taps on the wrench netted no movment. Both took very hard wacks to move initially. Once the left one moved, it became more and more free.:clap The right one rotated a 1/4 turn and seized. :cry I then ground through it and pryed it off. The damage was done, IMHO. I would love to hear a way to avoid this, but I'd bet yearly antiseize will become regular maintenance: much like brake fluid. :deal

    Thanks for the suggestion on the VIN plate. I thought that was it, but didn't want to back myself in a corner without the right knowledge. :norton

    Pokeyman...this is the bike I bought up in KY at Xmas. How's your guzzi project coming?

    Thanks for y'all's help. :freaky I've got everything striped and ready to start pulling the swingarm, heads and timing cover. The only thing is I'm not supposed to lift more than 30lbs for one week. I'm sitting on my hands.
    #5
  6. Nessman

    Nessman Evangelical Atheist

    Joined:
    Feb 3, 2004
    Oddometer:
    2,258
    Location:
    Everett, WA
    #6
  7. photomd

    photomd Been here awhile

    Joined:
    Sep 29, 2007
    Oddometer:
    776
    Location:
    The Land of Cotton (SC)
    ...my wife said buy the Guzzi: it makes you happy. :raabia

    So what a week it's been. Last Friday morning I went to the ER with abdominal pain. I knew what it was. It just took several hours to do the CT scan and comfirm I needed my appendix out.

    I got home Saturday, and Sundary pulled the front cover off the motor. Here's what she looks like.

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    At first I thought I'd leave it. There's almost no movement of the chain on the sprocket, especially compared to Stagehands video. However if you look at the sprocket, it is worn. This chain has been replaced as it's got a master link. Anyway, I'm open to opinions. :ear

    Several days later I pulled the tranny. It seems to be leaking from the back case and the input shaft has a 1/4 turn of play before anything moves...is this normal? The oil was clean and the plug had very little spooge on it.

    The heads and cylinders came right off. I haven't measured anything, but for 106,000 miles, I think it looks good. We'll see what the micrometer says. BTW, what do y'all use for a ring compressor? The last several motors I've done, I've compressed the rings by hand, which is tedious...I have to get myself in "the zone" to do that. I'd rather have an easier way of doing it. :ear

    [​IMG]

    Also the clutch is toast. The material measures less than 3mm. I think Cycle Works will get a call early next week for tools. What do most of y'all do for clutch changes? Airhead's publication advertises a place in Calif that mills down the pressure plate and adds material to the clutch plate. Is this a good option or should I just replace with new parts?

    So here my winter bike sits. I'm sure I'll get 'er back together before Novemeber. I also have to add that compared to several 327 big blocks, several chevy small blocks v-8's, a couple of dirt bike motors and an old Kaw, this has to be one of the easiest motors to pull apart. I guess I'll soon figure out how easy it goes back together. Thanks for any help y'all can provide.:thumb
    #7
  8. pinecone

    pinecone 任意人

    Joined:
    Jun 4, 2005
    Oddometer:
    1,438
    Location:
    A place
    I would recommend with an older airhead that the heads get refurbished. IOW, new valve guides/valves that are unleaded friendly and new unleaded friendly valve seats. I was getting an R75/5 back on the road and it dropped a valve seat.:cry

    As far as a ring compressor is concerned, I have a nice Matco one that uses bands and locking pliers to compress the rings. Once the piston is in the cylinder, you need to be able to get the ring compressor out.

    Yes, the airhead is easy to work on. You'll do fine.:clap
    #8
  9. photomd

    photomd Been here awhile

    Joined:
    Sep 29, 2007
    Oddometer:
    776
    Location:
    The Land of Cotton (SC)
    Yep...Anton should recieve a package in the next two weeks.

    [​IMG]

    Then I can place a parts order and start on either the clutch or cam chain. :clap
    #9
  10. Foot dragger

    Foot dragger singletracker

    Joined:
    Dec 27, 2006
    Oddometer:
    13,837
    Location:
    chico,just below rag dump(nor-cal)
    Yikes! You have got it going on compared to the simple projects Ive got going here. Good luck with all that.
    #10
  11. princess jamaica

    princess jamaica OLD DOG-NEW TRICKS

    Joined:
    Oct 13, 2006
    Oddometer:
    2,566
    Location:
    KM111.5 POSADA CONCEPCION,BCS
    i can hardly put air in the tires without help:eek1 :eek1 you guys are killing me!:lol3
    #11
  12. photomd

    photomd Been here awhile

    Joined:
    Sep 29, 2007
    Oddometer:
    776
    Location:
    The Land of Cotton (SC)
    Welp, I got the clutch out tonight and all the marks are lined up at 6:00. :huh
    I've always thought this bike had more vibration that it should. I wonder if this is one cause.

    [​IMG]

    I've also got oil that is smeared in the bottom. I can turn the flywheel and see oil coming from the oilpump cover. Looks like I'm pulling the flywheel. Anymore thoughts on replacing the rear main seal while I'm in there?

    On a positive note, I could measure the clutch properly...its 5.74mm. :clap
    #12
  13. motorjon68

    motorjon68 Been here awhile

    Joined:
    Sep 12, 2004
    Oddometer:
    440
    Location:
    S.W. Ohio
    Hey Photomd,
    keep me posted on the progress of the SP. I looked at her back in November. I'm just tight on room. The guy had a lot of 'stuff'. It was a nice find.
    #13
  14. photomd

    photomd Been here awhile

    Joined:
    Sep 29, 2007
    Oddometer:
    776
    Location:
    The Land of Cotton (SC)
    I sure will. I got an alloy alt cover off eBay last night. I'm getting excited about working on 'er. However, I've got to get the tranny and heads shipped and order parts...lots of parts.

    For now I'm still trying to learn. I've posted this story on a different sight and someone pointed out that this piccy looks like gas wash.

    [​IMG]

    This is the left cylinder and that carb did overflow when sitting when I bought the bike. It had a two piece float and no drain if the gas level was too high. When it did overflow, it would come from the front left corner of the float bowl, especially on the side stand.

    I rebuilt the carbs with stock parts and changed the oil which was clean and had a very slight gas smell. No problems since (7000+ miles ago).

    Welp the question is whether I should pull the pistons and rods, check the main bearings as well as the cam followers. What do the Gurus here think? :ear I'd rather not go into the bottom end as, in my mind, if I do, then the crank needs to be pulled, checked and reassembled to do it correctly.
    #14
  15. datchew

    datchew Don't buy from Brad

    Joined:
    Aug 1, 2005
    Oddometer:
    7,409
    Location:
    Remember the Alamo!
    while it's open, it's very easy to pull off the pistons and check the connecting rod bearings.

    pull the lifters out with a magnet and look at the cam lobes. If all is peachy keen, I'd just put it back together.
    #15
  16. charliemik

    charliemik Been here awhile

    Joined:
    Aug 30, 2007
    Oddometer:
    420
    Location:
    Flagstaff AZ
    Man, you're just havin' too much fun. I wish I had time for as many projects. I can only manage one at a time. I've gotta finish the resto on my old G/S before I can even think about starting in on my RS.

    I've not done this but I've read many a warning. Be extra careful in replacing the clutch carrier (technically it's not a flywheel on the later RSs). Apparently the entire crankshaft can shift forward causing untold grief when you go to start the engine later. I've read of people using a rag bunched up in front of the crank gear and putting on the front cover (sounds sketchy to me) or bolting a block of wood across the crank gear to restrain it. I would definitely leave the clutch carrier on to keep the crank restrained while removing the timing gear.

    Also, I don't think you mentioned anything about the swing arm bearings. On a bike with 100K + miles on it, I'd just replace them. They're pretty cheap (by BMW standards anyway). It can be a bear getting the races out. I had a local motorcycle shop pull mine in exchange for a nice, crisp $10 bill. I put the new races in the freezer for a bit and they tapped in easily with an appropriately sized socket and hammer.
    #16
  17. photomd

    photomd Been here awhile

    Joined:
    Sep 29, 2007
    Oddometer:
    776
    Location:
    The Land of Cotton (SC)
    :scratch To do that correctly, don't I need to be able to measure the crank and check the clearence with a plastigage? Should I just pull it and make sure it's clean? :confused

    Thanks for the warning about the crank. I've read (and need to reread) Snowbum's article about blocking the crank. I'm thinking I'll put a tapered hole in a 2x4 this weekend and put bungie's on it. I haven't heard about cramming rags in the front cover.

    On your suggestion, I checked the swingarm bearings tonight: left one is gone. Good call. :thumb

    I gotta order some parts or the airhead's progress is gonna stall. I gotta quite working through lunch. :bash It's having a negative impact on my motorcycling. :bluduh
    #17
  18. charliemik

    charliemik Been here awhile

    Joined:
    Aug 30, 2007
    Oddometer:
    420
    Location:
    Flagstaff AZ
    Technically, yeah, I suppose. But I've taken 3 of these motors apart to balance them (Connecting rods, pistons. Made a big difference on one, marginal on the others but, heck, can't hurt). One of 'em was 160K mile motor and the bearing shells still looked great and the crank journals showed no visible scoring or wear. So, I bought new bearings just for grins and put 'em back together. No problems. I did measure the rod ends to check for roundness and tolerance and they were fine. A local BMW mechanic told me he's checked hundreds of 'em and, unless somebody let the inside of their motor get dirty, he never saw a crank that needed any machining. Even with a couple a hundred thousand miles on 'em. The bottom ends of these motors are truly bomb proof.
    #18
  19. Stagehand

    Stagehand Imperfectionist

    Joined:
    Oct 6, 2004
    Oddometer:
    31,872
    Location:
    Shawangunks
    Do you meant the factory marks are lined up? I bet that would cause some vibration.

    I think the best crank-blocking technique I've heard of is to make a 3/4" long bolt to fit in the nose of the crank, and then put the front cover back on. The bolt should be long enough to just keep the cover from seating.
    I think this was a snowbum jig.

    I've not replaced a main seal, but hell as long as the oil puump is getting looked at, Do it. $40 for a mainseal puller, unless you can borrow one from the ADV Braintrust?

    So the actual clutch disc itself is 5.7mm? thats good, I think low spec is 4.5
    #19
  20. Stagehand

    Stagehand Imperfectionist

    Joined:
    Oct 6, 2004
    Oddometer:
    31,872
    Location:
    Shawangunks

    Agreed.

    They only make two sizes of bearing shells, so your crank has to be pretty far out to require the Upsize. When I measured mine at 93K, it had almost no wear. PLastiguage would be the correct deal, though.

    Of course get new con-rod bolts if you do this.

    I might just look at them, and if they look good and feel good just button it back together.
    #20