Wideband Sensor How?

Discussion in 'Crazy-Awesome almost Dakar racers (950/990cc)' started by sombreroisland, Aug 12, 2011.

  1. sombreroisland

    sombreroisland Been here awhile

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    Hi guys,

    considering of getting the Innovate LM2 Wideband AFR Kit. Does anyone have photos of where to place the sensor? Also, is this sensor a permanent install where you can mount a gauge on the handle bar? Sorry, I'm almost completely illiterate with this thing...but am considering of learning more about the beast with this kit and don't know where to start really...
    #1
  2. Dino de Laurentiis

    Dino de Laurentiis Working on it

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    What do you want to use it for? Just to monitor lambda (AFR) and retain your current fuel system or do you want to use the wideband monitors to affect the afr (using some kind of piggy back device)?

    If the former, do you currently use O2 eliminators? If so, then you can attach the O2 sensors directly into the bungs for the OEM sensors. If you don't use O2 eliminators, but want to keep the OEM O2 sensors, then you need to weld on new bungs, and attach the wideband sensors to them.

    If you want to use the wideband sensors with a piggy back ECU (or a completely new standalone ECU), then you can also reuse the existing bungs, and don't need to weld on new ones.
    #2
  3. Audiholic

    Audiholic Bring extra socks...

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    The LM2 is a handheld type device (not for permanent install). For a gauge on your bike your best bet would be the MTX-L product from innovate - it's the most streamlined solution. Their slightly older LC1 (which they still sell) is to be avoided - I've had to warranty many of these between my own cars and customer cars. The MTX-L is supposed to be a much more robust unit and all of the electronics are built into the gauge housing so you don't have a lot of electronics to stuff somewhere on the bike.

    http://innovatemotorsports.com/products/MTXL.php

    However, if I was spending money on a direct instal wideband AFR gauge, I would buy an AEM unit, they have a better track record and seem to be more durable, IMO.

    http://www.aemelectronics.com/wideband-air-fuel-systems-15/digital-wideband-air-fuel-gauge-25/
    #3
  4. sombreroisland

    sombreroisland Been here awhile

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    Hi Dino,

    I really just wanted to check my AFR in trying to optimize my carb settings...I don't have any o2 eliminators (i have a KTM 950se) as far as I know...

    As far as I understand it to be, since all the jets and needles come into play at different riding times (idle, low throttle, at speed, high throttle, max speed), I was wondering do I need the sensor there while I'm riding the bike? I haven't seen how this works...
    #4
  5. sombreroisland

    sombreroisland Been here awhile

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    Hi Audiholic,

    Just wanted understand, If i got the MTX-L or the AEM, does it mean, that's the only thing I need to purchase? From the little that I know, getting a reading of the AFR mainly needs, a sensor, a logging system and a gauge. From what you're saying, the MTX-L / AEM wide band does all of this. Is there a way to log the results I get from these?

    I was wondering how important RPMs were also since the 950se doesn't have an RPM meter?

    Is the AEM a weather-proof unit that's a permanent install? I see these AFR gauges being installed in cars not but in a motorcycle where you get the rain, mud and anything in between.

    I don't really need it to stay there permanently, maybe just have it there while I'm still tuning the bike but it may as well be a cool farkle I can leave on...
    #5
  6. Audiholic

    Audiholic Bring extra socks...

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    MTXL or AEM = complete ready to use. Guage (has electronics built in) and sensor are sold together.
    MTXL claims to be a water resistant gauge and you can hook up your laptop to it and do a data log (AFR only).
    If you want to add RPM into the mix you need to start thinking about using one of their "Aux" boxes which can handle other sensor values. The prices will start to add up quickly.

    Do you have a 950 or 990?
    #6
  7. sombreroisland

    sombreroisland Been here awhile

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    Hi Audiholic,

    I have a KTM 950 SE.

    I'd like to take your advice on going AEM...have you ever tried that under the rain? I mean, given your advice on the durability of AEM...I may as well go with that.

    Plus, weather resistant may not be as weather proof as we need it to be on a bike?

    Can the AEM do logging?
    #7
  8. Audiholic

    Audiholic Bring extra socks...

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    That's the issues w/ the AEM: No claimed water proofness and to my knowledge they don't have a logging program for your laptop.

    Innovate: You can install their own program "LogWorks" and look at the Wideband data graphically and record it. The graphical readout is nice b/c it is easier to see transient changes in fueling where a numerical gauge would just be quickly flicking through changing numbers. Logging is nice, but can also be somewhat useless w/out RPM - You would have an AFR vs Time log. So unless you are on a dyno and can match up time stamps or start and stop a log accurately, it wouldn't be super useful IMO.

    The AEM is still a better product in my experience, the sensor doesn't need a free air calibration (which the Innovate products frequently do) [free air cal means you have to pull the sensor out of the exaust and calibrate it against a clean air reference, AEM uses the proper Bosch protocol and doesn't loose this calibration] So perhaps the AEM gauge could be made more water tight w/ silicon.
    #8
  9. sombreroisland

    sombreroisland Been here awhile

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    Ok...sounds like AEM it is...Thank you...now where do I actually mount it? Seems like it's not as easy as putting the sensor at the end of the exhaust pipe?

    Also, am I being to ambitious to actually add a tachometer on the SE?
    #9
  10. sombreroisland

    sombreroisland Been here awhile

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    I saw a video of AEM on youtube how they added the sensor on a Honda Ruckus...but where exactly will you put the sensor in on a vtwin engine or do I need two systems for this, cool but costly...
    #10
  11. Vassily28

    Vassily28 TheFrenchCanadian

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    To optimize your jetting, i dont think you want to transport with you your computer. I have the LM-1 and it's a good unit. I use it on my SER and my modified Tacoma 2005. The LM-2 is a better unit and you can connect a device to read the RPM. So you'll need the LM-2 kit with the widwband sensor, the rpm reading device and a bung to install on your header before the H-pipe but as far as possible from the motor.

    I've installed 2 bungs on my SER (front and rear cylinder) but for the rear cylinder i can't have stable readings and i've got lot of error codes. I've installed a heatsink cause i'm pretty sure it was related to eaxhaust gas temperature. The results were not better. The rear bung is insttaled exactly at the same place of the OEM egt bung. It's the only place that was accessible for the installation of the sensor. So i can only read at iddle and low throttle opening on the rear. For the front cylinder, no problems. I can read and log all the band of throttle openings and the very important WOT.

    So now i'm using the readings of the front cylinder to jet front and rear.

    The bung on the front cylinder is installed in the V of the frame just over the right peg. Look at 26th pictures, in middle of page 6 in this link.

    http://www.ridaventure.ca/viewtopic.php?f=48&t=5331&start=75
    #11
  12. sombreroisland

    sombreroisland Been here awhile

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    Vassily, could you share a sample of an RPM device?

    I'm in love with your ceramic pipes...
    #12
  13. Vassily28

    Vassily28 TheFrenchCanadian

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  14. Audiholic

    Audiholic Bring extra socks...

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    I'm ordering this unit from Zietronix today:
    http://www.zeitronix.com/Products/zt2/zt2.shtml

    [​IMG]

    I will couple it with this gauge:
    http://www.zeitronix.com/Products/ZR-2/ZR-2.shtml

    [​IMG]

    The base wideband unit can take RPM and TPS (Throttle Position) inputs and be logged via a PC.

    Optional inputs (using their sensors):
    EGT (exhaust gas temp)
    IAT or CLT (1 temp input - coolant or air for instance)
    MAP: Manifold pressure

    The pricing is reasonable and the gauge is pretty slick. The digital readout can be configured to toggle through AFR, EGT, IAT or MAP plus the outer ring has a scale on it that can display any of the above - so effectively, you can look at 2 values at the same time - one will be numeric and the second a LED dot that lights up next to the perimeter scale.

    With the logging of RPM, MAP and TPS it should be easy to look at AFR values and be able to effectively tune the F and L maps a bit more accurately w/ TuneECU!

    The only downside is it's not weather resistant. I'll give a full update once I get it in my hand and installed.
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  15. crazybrit

    crazybrit Long timer

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    Did you make the copper sheet heatsink on page 8 of the manual? I assume you didn't try the heatsink Innovate sells (see below)?

    I'm thinking of picking up an LM2 to see if I have a cylinder imbalance that's causing my vibration issue.

    I was wondering (since I have a lathe) if it would be practical to make a combination heatsink-M10/M18 adapter so that the M18 Bosch sensor could plug into the OEM M10 EGT port. Something similar to the $$$ heatsink that Innovate sells.

    Looks somewhat challenging as there is a side mounted port that has to be aligned (using the index mark on the hex end and shim washers) to face the manifold output, plus what appears to be an offset end hole. Would be helpful to get my hands on the Innovate one.

    I'd rather not have to start welding on new M18 plugs in place of the stock M10.
    #15
  16. pdxmotorhead

    pdxmotorhead Been here awhile

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    I'm going to try welding the bung in the cross over pipe, should be enough flow to give the overall mix there...

    We shall see..

    Dave
    #16
  17. Vassily28

    Vassily28 TheFrenchCanadian

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    #17
  18. crazybrit

    crazybrit Long timer

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    So I talked to Innovate and they said that the bung for the M18 O2 sensor needs to be 24" away from where the header exits the cylinder.

    These seem to be your relevant pics from your link above. If I'm looking at them correctly it looks like you reused the OEM AFR bung location for the rear cylinder, that's only 3" away from the header so not surprising that you cannot get a reading on the rear.

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    -------------

    Seems the heat shield is further back on the Adventure than on my 950. I was thinking of mounting into the rear header at the red arrow which is 22" from the rear cylinder (measured). The location is at the exit of the bend right before the 2:2 connection, not sure if that will be an issue?

    [​IMG]

    For the front cylinder I'm not so sure, the ideal location is right next to it but it's blocked by the rear mounting screw for the heat shield.

    Anyone have any suggestions?

    [​IMG]
    #18
  19. ÖÖ.

    ÖÖ. Ajaa kuin mummo

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    Sorry for lifting an old thread.

    I have 2 to 1 exhaust and I'm trying to find best place for the lambda sensor. Any opinions which one of these two is the best place?
    [​IMG]
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  20. Dusty

    Dusty Long timer

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    If you put it there (you can if you want to) it will only be reading the combined AFR of both cylinders, i have found with the LM2 that my F&R cylinders were quite far apart.... front was way lean.

    After some changes to the front i have them much more in what i feel is a safe range.

    I feel both cylinder need to be monitored to do a proper tune.
    #20