Won't start when warm

Discussion in 'Parallel Universe' started by oclv454, Apr 10, 2010.

  1. oclv454

    oclv454 Been here awhile

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    There has been much discussion here and in the other F800GS forum about stalling. I have an occasional starting problem. Last week I rode the bike 90 miles. Shut it off for 5 minutes and it wouldn't start. After three tries without touching the throttle I finally gave it a little throttle and it started. I thought that was odd for a fuel injected motor. Yesterday, I rode 20 miles and stopped for fuel. I filled it and it wouldn't start. I tried three times, again without throttle and then finally some throttle. Still wouldn't start. I let it sit for 20 minutes and still nothing. It would turn over normally, but wouldn't fire and run. I tried at intervals for an hour while I waited for roadside assistance. The bike is now at the dealership. I had filled the tank to near the top, and found that while I was waiting for the tow truck and I was sitting on the seat (in the sun) and had the bike straight up, a little fuel was leaking out, I guess through a vented overflow. If anyone has had this I would appreciate any hints as to what you ended up finding. Thanks. oclv
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  2. kkug

    kkug Been here awhile

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    My Guess Fuel Pump--Let me know.
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  3. Lion BR

    Lion BR I'd rather be riding

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    Is your bike fitted with a charcoal canister?
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  4. oclv454

    oclv454 Been here awhile

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    It's a 2009 and I think they are all 50 state bikes, so my guess is that it has a charcoal cannister. At least I have never removed it, and I haven't looked to confirm that it does or does not have it. It's got the rubber tube hanging down under the bike. I just called the dealer and they are not sure why it didn't start. They couldn't get it to start last night when I got towed in. It didn't start this morning either. They changed the plugs and it started but they are still not sure sure why it didn't start previously. oclv
    #4
  5. JRWooden

    JRWooden Long timer

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    All the USA production bikes have the canister.

    It does sound like you over-filled it.

    On the other hand, since you did pop the tank lid which would have relieved any built-up vacuum (if you had flooded the canister with liquid gasoline) I'm not sure you can blame the no-start condition on the canister.

    If it started but ran rough/stalled/etc then maybe the canister could be implicated. ... Just my thoughts - somebody correct me if I'm wrong, but I see a fouled up canister as potentially responsible for only 3 things:

    1) stops running/runs poorly due to vacuum in tank which the fuel pump can not overcome so bike is starved for fuel -temporally corrected by popping the lid.

    2) runs like crap due to liquid fuel of very heavy vapor load being drawn in to throttle body from canister
    Could be temp. corrected by disconnecting line from canister to throttle body and plugging the line.

    3) runs like crap due to charcoal residue contamination of injectors as result of charcoal breaking down in the canister and then being sucked into the engine....... (unproven at this point) and no road-side fix ....

    Counter-arguments welcome :lol3
    #5
  6. oclv454

    oclv454 Been here awhile

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    While I was waiting for the tow truck, I opened and closed the gas cap several times. I even tried starting it once with the gas cap open. There was no running rough, it was just turning over and not firing at all. Thanks for the thoughts. I'll let you know if/when they find something. Like I said above, I hope they find something definate to make me feel better about heading out into the back country. oclv
    #6
  7. Indy Unlimited

    Indy Unlimited Long timer

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    Just run some Seafoam thru to clean the injectors. The ethanol in our gas can clog the micro injectors on our bikes. It will give you symptoms like the fuel pump is going bad but it is actually the injectors cant get enough fuel.
    I run an ounce of Seafoam in the gasoline every 4 to 5 tanks. We get some fueling stations that have as much as 35% WATER & ETHANOL when the tanks get low since the water and ethanol tend to mix and settle to the bottom. Ethanol just makes no sense for a combustion engine!
    #7
  8. Bucko

    Bucko In a parallel world

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    Mine was starting hard both cold and warm and dying when I pulled the clutch in as I was stopping. I ran some Seaform thru and it improved a bit. Got much better when I filled it with some fresh gas from Chevron and seems fine now. Makes me not want to go back to my corner Shell station, though I know any place can dredge up some crap for you when the tanks get low.
    #8
  9. oclv454

    oclv454 Been here awhile

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    A quick update. I picked up my bike last Tuesday and went for a ride after work. It ran fine. I shut it off and started it a half dozon times. Thursday night I went to start it and it wouldn't start. Same symptoms as last time. It would turn over fine but not fire. I was thinking fuel pump. I had it towed to the dealership again yesterday. I talked to them this morning and early indications are (as suggested above) the injectors. They are replacing them next week. They are also going to test the fuel in my tank to see what percentage ethanol it has in it. Apparently the warranty doesn't cover new injectors if there is more than 10% in the fuel but I have read where BMW has been generous on this issue. Anyway, my ZRX1200 is happy because this is the second weekend in a row the new F800GS has been in the shop and ZREX gets to go out and play. The bike has been at Sierra BMW. Scott and the dealership have been terrific. oclv
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  10. BMWHillbilly

    BMWHillbilly Been here awhile

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    I can't believe that if they test the gas in your tank and find more than 10% ethanol that BMW will decline coverage for fuel injectors. What in the hell are we supposed to do? Test it at every fill up? Recourse from the gas station?
    #10
  11. Indy Unlimited

    Indy Unlimited Long timer

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    You just have to run some ethanol stabilizer which keeps it mixed with gas better and run some Seamfoam on a regular basis. I ran it to this here this winter and our injectors can not handle ethanol very well. Use seafoam in higher doses and it will clean the injectors when they start to clog. BMW doesnt cover ethanol issues and the injectors have ultra fine nozzles. We are the only morons in the world that put the crap in our gas.:huh
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  12. Bartron

    Bartron 'Tenacious B' the Bike Punisher

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    Because nobody else can afford to waste corn and divert food for fuel at no benefit to anyone. Oh my, how did that rant squeak out?

    PS. My hemisphere will be warmer tomorrow - not because of global warming but because the weatherman said so. He's always right.
    #12
  13. BMWHillbilly

    BMWHillbilly Been here awhile

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    i'm a big fan of Seafoam and used it regularly with my carbed bikes. I will be more adament on this bike. As a preventative measure of course. :D
    #13
  14. David_S

    David_S Long timer

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    I have a hard time buying into the injectors as being the cause. Why would it fail to start but when it does it runs fine. If the injectors were clogged or damaged otherwise there would be performance issues after starting no? Reason for posting is because I am having a similar problem with mine. Mine is an intermittent crank no start but cold. Fuel level has no effect nor does ambient temp. I'll go out to leave in the morning and she'll just crank and crank. Get pissed, drive the truck to work, come home and she'll start right up. It is definitely a fuel delivery issue because if I spray starting fluid in the intake tubes she'll start. Sometimes right up and idle smoothly and other times it'll chug a bit. Why will it deliver fuel after firing on the starting fluid? If the pump or injectors are bad the starting fluid should have no effect. Also since there are two injectors I would think both failing totally at exactly the same time is pretty far fetched and as I mention why would they fail then start to function normally? I have been scouring the net looking for information on this issue and it seems bmw is putting injectors in but it hasn't fixed any bikes that I have read about. I think they don't know what the problem is and are just trying this especially if they can deny the claim. Mine is so intermittent that i haven't bothered to take it to the dealer yet. I am trying to gather as much info as possible first. I'm leaning towards a fuel pump control issue or a sensor input or signal processing that for some reason doesn't get the on signal sent to the pump or pulse to the injectors. If bmw didn't cloak these bikes in secrecy and shared some wiring diagrams we may have a better chance of fixing them since the dealers are having problems at least from the incidents I have read about. Yesterday I tried a suggestion by Joel W that involved holding the ground cable against the positive (ground disconnected of course) and is supposed to do some memory clearing on the controllers. Time will tell if it worked or not.
    #14
  15. Vance

    Vance On my meds...

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    Yes, you do have recourse from the gas station...

    I had a friend who had similar problems with his high end BMW car. He was a strict Texaco customer with a Texaco gas card that he used exclusively for that vehicle. He went out of his way to find Texaco gas because he though it was a high quality fuel for whatever reason.

    When his car took a shit, the dealer suggested bad fuel. He told them of his fuel buying habits. He ended up going to Texaco to recoup the cost of the rebuild. They paid it quickly because he could prove that he bought only their fuel.

    It might be a little more difficult if you don't have that type of proof, but lot's of us buy one brand or another for whatever reason and use credit cards. It might be worth a shot. I remember buying only 76 Gas for my bikes when I was living in California because they were the only ones with the high octane fuel...
    #15
  16. Lion BR

    Lion BR I'd rather be riding

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    Not true.
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  17. oclv454

    oclv454 Been here awhile

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    When I originally posted that my bike occasionally wouldn't start when warm, it was because each time to that point the engine was warm. Last Thursday, the engine was cold.

    I too, have looked at all forums I could find and it seems the issue is still somewhat of a mystery. Some say voltage to the fuel pump, some say injectors, some say charcoal cannister, some say water in the gas.

    I'll keep you posted. oclv
    #17
  18. WoodWorks

    WoodWorks House Ape

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    Nah, in Brazil they run 22% ethanol (made from sugar) in their automotive gas. I wonder what BMW says to Brazilian F800 owners. :ear

    David
    #18
  19. David_S

    David_S Long timer

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    Please do. I've ruled out the canister (disconnected it from the system), Not water in the gas as mine has been on going through many tanks from different stations, plus usually that will display driveability issues not just a complete failure to attempt to start. I wish I could find a diagram to monitor fuel pump voltage. There are 3 wires there. When the bike is running there is battery/charging voltage on one, ground on the other, and a bit over 7 volts on the last. I assume the 7 volt wire is a signal wire showing the pumps current draw or resistance value? If I run a jumper to the 12 volt wire key on engine off the pump does not run so it appears ground is supplied from a controller as well it would seem. I'm probably going to make up a harness that I can connect to the pos & neg terminals on the pump to see what readings I get when it won't start. I'm hesitant to supply direct power and ground to the pump when it doesn't start not knowing where the wires lead from. bmw's refusal to allow us to purchase repair info on the electronics is one of the things that has me the most frustrated about this entire problem. If i discover anything I'll post back here. Maybe I have my head in the sand but normal logic concerning fuel injection just doesn't allow me to believe it is both fuel injectors with intermittent failures at the same time. Could be fuel pump but that also doesn't explain why the bike will start and run if I give it a shot of starting fluid. It's almost like the pump isn't getting the signal to prime when ignition is first turned on but I haven't verified this yet as mine has been starting since I began digging into the problem.
    #19
  20. Dolly Sod

    Dolly Sod I want to do right, but not right now

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    Can you normally hear the pump prime when you turn the key?
    #20