Would A B S have saved her?

Discussion in 'The Perfect Line and Other Riding Myths' started by viverrid, Aug 30, 2013.

  1. randyo

    randyo Long timer

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    I would agree if your just going into the next turn in the road a bit hot, however that is not that the OP's wife was doing, she was making a 90° turn on to an entirely different surface

    possible ABS might help in that situation? sure, likely? NO
    #61
  2. Wraith Rider

    Wraith Rider Banned

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    ABS is VERY proficient in handling different surfaces. In fact, THAT's where it shines most, compared to human control.

    As I said, what could have been a problem was her having a more pavement oriented tire, so having lesser grip on the gravel road, and what could have been another problem is, she might not have braked as hard before turning, though ABS could have helped with that as well.
    The lower grip level maybe was too low for her turning speed (and skill) at all, but the change of surface would NOT have been a problem for a modern ABS.
    #62
  3. randyo

    randyo Long timer

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    not doubt, but it's still a problem for lateral traction of the tire, braking or no braking
    #63
  4. henshao

    henshao Bained

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    OP made the turn without wiping out. At minimum the get off would have been less severe, not all front end washouts happen at the same speed. Sometimes it goes out so fast you don't even notice before you're on the deck wondering WTF just happened. Other times you get a foot down and almost catch the damn thing...
    #64
  5. Wraith Rider

    Wraith Rider Banned

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    From all we know, including the limitations I explained, the turn was most likely doable if she released the brakes. ABS would have done that.
    #65
  6. randyo

    randyo Long timer

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    the turn was also not as much of a surprise to the OP
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  7. viverrid

    viverrid not dead yet

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    Since she was 50 yards behind me, it was hardly a surprise to her, she saw me turn in. No "surprise" made her turn onto the loose material while she was still braking. If she was really surprised, she would have gone right past, which would actually have been better than what she did do.
    #67
  8. joexr

    joexr Banned

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    How long has she been riding regularly?
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  9. viverrid

    viverrid not dead yet

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    She was braking when she crossed onto looser material, She didn't manage to change direction by very much before the front tucked in. She was both braking and turning at the same time and didn't have enough grip to do both when she crossed onto the looser material. I thought it was a real question whether ABS reducing the braking force would have at least given her some sort of indication the front was being overloaded.

    Some have been saying "No, she was turning, ABS doesn't help if you're turning". Others are saying more like "Maybe, because if she hadn't been braking so much she could have made it". I still don't know.
    #69
  10. viverrid

    viverrid not dead yet

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    You should not be teaching that guy how to ride!

    That guy should take a class!

    You should have bike-to-bike intercom with that guy so you can warn him!

    Except that nobody is saying that because he is just another guy and expected to be responsible for his own ride.

    But substitute your wife for that guy and people have been saying all that to me.
    #70
  11. joexr

    joexr Banned

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    The intercom sounds like a VERY god idea. You can point out road debris , tell where you're going or tell what you're doing and why , while you're doing it. Not to mention critiqueing.
    #71
  12. randyo

    randyo Long timer

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    if you want to change your story from, a 90°turn and the wheel tucked, to, she was still braking and didn't turn much, to satisfy your desire to justify ABS I have no problem
    #72
  13. viverrid

    viverrid not dead yet

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    Not changing anything. The side road is at a 90 degree angle to the main road. We wanted to go into the side road but she didn't make it around the 90 degrees. She fell in the intersection when the front tucked in as she was turning and braking at the same time and crossed into the looser material instead of completing her braking more before she turned. I never said she had turned 90 degrees. If she had turned the full 90 degrees she would have already completed the maneuver and there would be nothing to talk about. (The front wheel on a motorcycle doesn't turn 90 degrees so at least you didn't claim I said that.)
    #73
  14. viverrid

    viverrid not dead yet

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    I don't think it's a bad idea and we have considered one but never gotten around to doing it. OTOH, I don't go riding to talk while I'm doing it!

    I don't think it would have made any difference here. It's not that she didn't know I was turning, she saw me turn. If she had done what I did, brake more on the pavement and then turn, she would have completed the maneuver the same as I did. Instead she crossed onto the dirt while still in the midst of braking. It's not like I could possibly anticipate everything another rider could possibly do wrong and tell them not to before they do it.

    As for critiquing, I dunno, aren't I not supposed to try to "teach her to ride"?
    #74
  15. scottrnelson

    scottrnelson Team Orange

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    And I don't necessarily agree with everybody here.

    I don't believe that ABS would have saved her when pulling off into the dirt while braking and turning, and I think it would be good if there were a better way to teach riders about spotting low traction conditions. Too many don't seem to understand how to tell when traction is going to be less and what you can and can't get away with when you have lower traction.

    If I were in your situation, I would discuss traction with my wife, and would be thankful for a wife who actually likes to ride (mine doesn't want anything to do with being on a motorcycle).
    #75
  16. viverrid

    viverrid not dead yet

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    She also likes to ride as passenger but wants her own bike too.

    She's said she sometime learns more by riding as passenger, sort of learn by example/observation rather than being given instructions. Things she's said after riding as passenger behind me:

    After riding through town and going around a city block: "I can't believe you can make such square turns!" Helped her to realize what's possible.

    After riding on some high speed sweepers: "I can't believe how little effort it takes you to get the bike to turn!" Reviewed countersteering and peg weighting.

    After demonstration of high performance acceleration after finding us first vehicle at a traffic light with a 55 mph section ahead of us: "I can't believe how fast you shifted, did you skip some gears or something?" Again, showing what's possible.

    If newbs just ride by themselves, well seat time is good, but sometimes they don't realize what they could be doing differently/better. It's like the pilots' saying along the lines of "he doesn't have 1,000 hrs. of experience, he just has the same hour 1,000 times".
    #76
  17. Pantah

    Pantah PJ Fan from Boston

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    I am sick of this jerk and his posting about his wife. I went on one of his club's rides last season. After his constant posts this year, I will never spend a nickle on his club's rides again. The Berkshire trail people are dead to me.
    #77
  18. joexr

    joexr Banned

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    Good point at the end there that most of the high mileage , but little experience experts don't get.
    #78
  19. glasswave

    glasswave Been here awhile

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    IMHO
    With all due respect, after reading your post (and your other threads on the subject) it doesn't sound like she's much of a car driver either. To make a sharp right from pavement into gravel under hard braking is not a very good idea either. It's a good way to end up in the ditch or perhaps having to buy old farmer McDonald a new fence.

    Let's face it, some (perfectly intelligent, talented and athletic) people are simply not very good at operating large machines. If you've ever worked operating big farm or construction equipment, you'd know the type. They come on the job as FNG's and in the first few weeks have made several small and perhaps a few audacious f___-ups, before everyone starts getting nervous and the foreman explains that they are simply not cut out for (truck, combine, cat, crane, grader, etc) driver and everyone breaths a sigh of relief. Most of these people still drive, and they are the folks we are always telling stories about here in perfect line. Usually they are fine, but when confronted with unusual or difficult situations or conditions they may do illogical things with their vehicles and simply don't have the talent/skill to handle their vehicles in such emergencies/conditions.

    In Utah, you see it every time it snows. People going too fast, too slow, using their brakes/steering/gas pedal improperly etc... Funny thing is, they often don't realize how bad they are driving and seem to think everyone else is just as out of control as they are. They often tend to compensate w/AWD car and or snow tires, when really (that just makes them more dangerous), they should be taking a class or getting off the road.

    I am not saying that your wife needs to quit riding if she's starting to enjoy it, but as her leader and mentor you need to adjust your riding/routes to keep her in safe situations. Essentially avoid anything that's has much likelihood of of a difficult situation, especially with traffic or more experienced riders. Also, lead with exceptional care, for example you may want to stop on a gravel road when you come to a down hill and discuss the sloping turn at the bottom etc. As you mentioned you could have full stopped or passed and made a u-turn to make the gravel road. Finally, be very wary as she develops confidence and wants to start riding in city traffic or other somewhat dangerous situations.

    Anyways, it seems that she's doing worlds better than last summer, keep up the good work and never forget to keep reminding her of the progress she is making. Good work! :clap

    And don't give up, I once had a GF that was determined to become a whitewater kayaker, she would swim all the time even tho' she had learned the roll and was always nervous as hell (even on class II). I tried to steer her into an inflatable, but she wanted nothing to do with it. So we stayed on class II and kept ingraining the skills, last I heard she'd become a decent class III/IV paddler.
    #79
  20. glasswave

    glasswave Been here awhile

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    Well then, why do you bother to read his posts? As much as you would seem to like to, you don't own the forum and you don't get to decide who posts or about what.

    So unless you have something constructive to add to the discussion, why don't you quit insulting people?
    #80