would traction control help here?

Discussion in 'The Perfect Line and Other Riding Myths' started by rpeter, Dec 16, 2013.

  1. Kommando

    Kommando Long timer

    Joined:
    Nov 28, 2006
    Oddometer:
    7,403
    Location:
    Spacecoaster FL
    Ride some dirt and supermoto. Then ride dirt and supermoto on rainy days. Then when your bike breaks loose, it won't be scary. It'll just be another day.

    I slide the dualsport around in the rain and over wet paint lines all the time. It's no big deal if you're used to the bike sliding around under you.

    Tires that lose and regain traction progressively and predictably can make things easier too. Stock Deathwings on a DR650 are NOT those tires. :lol3
    #21
  2. RealestateguyInSoBay

    RealestateguyInSoBay Adventurer

    Joined:
    Jan 16, 2014
    Oddometer:
    10
    Traction control would have reduced or eliminated the rear wheel spin up. I have an HP4 and have encountered many slippery situations while leaned over and the traction control kicked in before I could even react.

    In this video, the rear tire spun up significantly which would have been reduced or eliminated with traction control.
    #22
  3. mfgc2310

    mfgc2310 Been here awhile

    Joined:
    Oct 22, 2011
    Oddometer:
    139
    Location:
    Ottawa
    Sorry to be harsh but how else will people learn.

    I watched your video and the way you crashed shows many mistakes but the big overall mistake is complete unawareness and preparedness for how to ride a motorcycle.

    If you are going to accellerate in a corner be prepared for the back to slide and respond accordingly and you will be amazed at what the bike will be able to do.

    You got fooled by having to slow for the car and so you found yourself accelerating while turning. Did you ever practice this? Even perfect road conditions can take you out doing this.

    I won't go into the details but when you ride a bike you don't sit on it like a piece of meat!

    You have to practice all the different situations a bike can get itself into so that when it happens your body responds instinctively. Even going into the corner your body should already have reacted automatically to maximize safety and prepare for what can happen in any corner but especially in this situation.

    If you do all this will you still crash? Yes. Maybe you are too tired, very slippery conditions, bad judgement like just trying to go too fast, and you have no control of what other people will do on the road.

    Traction control would have helped for sure but TC is not intended to replace riding knowledge and skill, only enhance it. TC will save your ass when a completely impossible to predict road surface condition changes dramatically, like an oil spill.

    I don't think TC is for intentional excessive throttle application.
    #23
  4. Pecha72

    Pecha72 Long timer

    Joined:
    May 5, 2008
    Oddometer:
    4,514
    Location:
    Helsinki, Finland
    If that spot where he started turning was properly icy, and he had regular tyres, he was gonna go down regardless of if the bike was equipped with TC, or not. It does not alter the laws of physics.

    Don´t believe me, then go try that same on an icy surface, on a bike that has TC, and report back.
    #24
  5. rpeter

    rpeter Been here awhile

    Joined:
    May 18, 2013
    Oddometer:
    101
    Location:
    Northeast Hell
    Wow, that was a pretty ridiculous rant. This whole thing happened at very low speed and the acceleration was gentle. Believe it or not, I was being cautious.
    #25
  6. mfgc2310

    mfgc2310 Been here awhile

    Joined:
    Oct 22, 2011
    Oddometer:
    139
    Location:
    Ottawa
    Exactly at low speed and you still fell.

    The bike, the road, the other cars, they don't give a shit how cautious you feel. It is physics and skill to exploit those physics to control the motorcycle.

    First understand what is happenning. Second figure out how to use that to get the bike to do what you want it to do. Thirdly practice until you can do it without thinking.

    The other element is situational awareness and specifically understanding traffic and road conditions generally.

    Also, I would say, develop and have a positive learning attitude.
    #26
  7. mfgc2310

    mfgc2310 Been here awhile

    Joined:
    Oct 22, 2011
    Oddometer:
    139
    Location:
    Ottawa
    Your probably right, but a small back tire skid shouldn't automatically get you to high side. Stay on the power, weight the pegs properly, weight forward, elbows bent

    Some of that you have to do before even going into the corner.

    Everytime you are on the gas in a corner you should be expecting the back tire to skid out and be prepared to ride through that.

    If you do crash it doesn't look like that crash.

    The real mistake was being on the gas in the corner with those road conditions.

    With good traction, you pick the bike up, out of the corner with the throttle. With poor traction you have to counter steer and only when the bike is almost vertical you get back on the gas.

    If you are really good, you do part of the curve, but then part way into the curve you get the bike vertical again and get the back end pointed in the right direction, so you can get on the gas again.
    #27
  8. OurDee

    OurDee n00b

    Joined:
    Feb 5, 2011
    Oddometer:
    5
    Location:
    North Central Illinois
    Chopping the throttle when power sliding is bad.
    #28
  9. NJ-Brett

    NJ-Brett Brett

    Joined:
    Sep 8, 2010
    Oddometer:
    6,920
    Location:
    Southern New Jersey
    Same thing can happen if you hit coolant or oil mid turn on a warm sunny day.

    Dirt riding helps, because its fun to power slide the rear wheel around.

    Maybe I was just to slow witted but I once went around a corner and hit coolant, something very slippery but not showing like a big oil spill does.
    The back wheel slid out like the flat track guys do, WAY out, and I just rode it out. I thought it was the coolest thing.
    I think I was too surprised to react with the throttle and just did the dirt thing.

    Rail road tracks at an angle cause me terror, wet ones, no way.

    Snow/ice riding is fun on a dual sport when you are younger, not so much on a street bike, I will pass.
    #29
  10. Walterxr650l

    Walterxr650l Long timer

    Joined:
    Mar 3, 2006
    Oddometer:
    1,326
    Location:
    Donald, Oregon
    That's not the way it looks from here. From here it looks like you were following to close. Were to impatient to wait for the car in front to finish it's turn. So spun out as you swerved and accelerated around it.

    Walter
    #30
  11. DaveBall

    DaveBall Long timer

    Joined:
    Sep 30, 2009
    Oddometer:
    1,163
    Location:
    Vancouver Island
    Seems to me that this is a classic example of not riding to the current conditions and not having enough experience riding in those conditions.

    Whenever there is the chance of slippery roads, give yourself a lot more room for maneuvering. And you have to totally change your method of riding. Don't accelerate in corners, especially when you have different surfaces to go over. Expect the totally unexpected.

    And don't expect something like traction control to save you from lack of ability.

    The above may seem harsh, but better to receive this kind of advice, than what they would give you in the emergency room.
    #31
  12. DougFromKentucky

    DougFromKentucky Just a good 'ole boy

    Joined:
    May 22, 2008
    Oddometer:
    444
    Location:
    Bowling Green, Kentucky
    I am a retired ER nurse. We got to see a lot of people who rode after dark in weather where the motorcycle shouldn't have been out at all. No sympathy for this type of situation. From what I saw in the video, you shouldn't have been out on the bike.
    #32
  13. rpeter

    rpeter Been here awhile

    Joined:
    May 18, 2013
    Oddometer:
    101
    Location:
    Northeast Hell
    To those who have given a thoughtful response, thank you very much!
    #33
  14. Pecha72

    Pecha72 Long timer

    Joined:
    May 5, 2008
    Oddometer:
    4,514
    Location:
    Helsinki, Finland
    If you enter a turn, and the tyre slides sideways simply because traction underneath is so poor (the surface is icy, or just otherwise very slippery), then TC won't save you.

    TC can only save you, if you make your rear wheel break traction, by giving too much throttle. And again, if you break traction by using brakes, it won't help (ABS in some cases might, though).
    #34
  15. sideup

    sideup Been here awhile

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 2011
    Oddometer:
    289
    Location:
    Columbia Gorge, USA
    I am a long time trials motorcycle rider (35+years) and only took up street riding a about 5 years ago. Old habits are really hard to change so I really couldn't tell you if this is proper street technique or not.
    But in trials riding, especially in mud and slick wet rocks which we have plenty of in the Pacific Northwest it is very , very important to weight the outside peg as you initiate the turn. Yes you can lean the bike to the inside and turn the bars. Of course this is done standing up on a trials bike but I can do the same thing sitting down on my 990 Adv. As told by many pro-trials instructors this allows your body (center of gravity) to be centered and weighted over the contact patch of your tires in the turn. It is so easy to see what happens on a trials bike in slippery conditions when you drop your shoulder to the inside putting your weight to the inside on a slippery turn. The bike immediately spins the rear tire to the outside of the turn and you dab to the inside.
    Keep your inside arm straight and bend your outside arm and transfer your weight to the outside peg. Trials riding teaches one many things without the consequences of falling on a big bike. I have fallen a "billion" times on my trials bike, worst case a bump or two here or there knock on wood. - Jack
    #35
  16. pistole

    pistole Long timer

    Joined:
    Jan 11, 2013
    Oddometer:
    1,379
    Location:
    earth
    appreciate where you're coming from as regards dirt riding , but putting your weight onto the outside footpeg as you initiate a turn is not something for the road.

    for road riding , just concentrate on the countersteering and flick the bike in.

    .
    #36
  17. sideup

    sideup Been here awhile

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 2011
    Oddometer:
    289
    Location:
    Columbia Gorge, USA
    Of course I am only saying this technic is good if you suspect slick conditions. Not normal everyday riding.
    #37
  18. ragtoplvr

    ragtoplvr Long timer

    Joined:
    Oct 18, 2007
    Oddometer:
    6,729
    Location:
    central USA
    Weighting the pegs is one of the controls of a motorcycle. I saved myself crashing once when overtaking a slower group and one of them panicked in a corner and I had to avoid brake. (Yes I was too close, yes I know, yes I do not do that now). Then after slowing, I was anxious to resume speed, to anxious. Yep, second link in the accident chain. I slid out the rear, by not chopping the throttle and weighting the outside peg, I brought it back in line. As they teach, break one link in the chain anywhere and no crash. Some old dirt bike memory kicked in and saved my plastic and more on the final like of that accident chain. Learn to use all the controls. All of them.

    The way I practice this on a heavy street bike you do not want to crash, is to ride on gravel roads or in a grassy pasture while standing on the pegs. Re-enforce that skill and maybe it will be there to save your sorry ass.

    Rod

    Rod
    #38
  19. rpeter

    rpeter Been here awhile

    Joined:
    May 18, 2013
    Oddometer:
    101
    Location:
    Northeast Hell
    I wish there was a way to practice riding in these conditions on a street bike, but I can't come up with anything. The slurpee mix was unexpected, but there it was, and next time I need a better plan.

    I am going to find a way to get dirt bike training at least.

    Should the same scenario as I encountered in the video occur again, for now my approach would be to just go straight ahead, apply light rear brake before running off of the road, wait for rearward traffic to pass, and then proceed very slowly, avoiding any turn maneuvers as long as the slurpee mix continues.
    #39
  20. Pecha72

    Pecha72 Long timer

    Joined:
    May 5, 2008
    Oddometer:
    4,514
    Location:
    Helsinki, Finland
    if you wanna ride in wintry road conditions, then get some proper studded tyres, and riding gear. Preferably switch to a more suitable bike as well.

    Winter on 2 wheels without good preparations will be extremely uncomfortable, and most likely dangerous, too.
    #40