XR650R electricity

Discussion in 'Thumpers' started by themansfield, Jan 8, 2009.

  1. Gunslinger1

    Gunslinger1 GIVE'R

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    Thanks everyone......

    XRider you were right on with where you were going. I had a case ground in the stator. The small L shaped pc that holds the stator harness againts the case and out of the way was touching one of the poles. ThumperDRZ found the problem checking continuity as 2 of the 4 stator wires were not open.........they must all be open.

    XRider.....did I damage my stator, rec/v.reg having this case ground. I rode about 200 miles knowing I had a problem and maybe 500 since I put the new stator in.

    Also......would you leave the battery in or go back to the capacitor?

    Thanks,
    Gunslinger1
  2. XRider

    XRider Almost Lifelike

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    Glad you found the issue. Wether or not the stator is fried I'd just plug it in and find out. What will kill the stator is if it got hot enough to break down the varnish that insolates the windings. The reg/rect is not as tough and it would be easy for me to believe that it's toast. You know all electrical parts have magic smoke inside and if you let that smoke out, they don't work anymore.

    The choice of a battery or a cap. For your aplication, since you don't have blinkers that you want to still blink at idle, I'd go with the cap. Mostly because it's not as heavy.

    Good catch finding the short.
  3. Purcell69

    Purcell69 Mors ex Tenebris

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    Has anyone here hooked up an Acewell digital dash to the Baja Designs dual sport kit on their XRR? I am still using the stock stator and the full DSK with the BD battery pack. The Acewell runs off 12v DC and needs to be connected to the battery with switched and non-switched power. It also has connections for the high beam indicator and the turn sigal indicators.

    -Joe
  4. Purcell69

    Purcell69 Mors ex Tenebris

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    Well I got it sorted out. The only issue I found that does not make sense is the speedometer/odometer was WAY off using the suggested settings in the instruction pamphlet. The directions called for a circumfrence of 1676mm for a 21" front tire. With that setting, it showed my speed putting around the yard to be over 50 mph! I sorta split the difference to a 840mm setting and the speed seems to be a lot closer. Any clues as to what may cause this?

    -Joe
  5. Zecatfish

    Zecatfish XTique Rider

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    I'm reading 7 pages of posts to find out if this is 205 or not. So here goes anyway.
    I was researching rewinding stators, I need to make my TT600 12v and found this last night and then I see this thread tonight.

    Enjoy:

    http://www.xr650r.us/stator/
  6. XRider

    XRider Almost Lifelike

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    If the speed sensor is a magnet on the disk rotor and a pick up going to the spedo your getting a double trigger. Check your instructions on the correct path for the magnet to by the sensor. On the Trailtech Vapor (what I've got) they want the magnet to pass by the end of the sensor. If it passes under the body of the sensor it will double trigger and the indicated speed will be x2.
  7. Purcell69

    Purcell69 Mors ex Tenebris

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    Thanks XRider. The Acewell comes with its own speed sensor that replaces the stock odometer cable for the XR650R. I think I may have it sorted out. When I hooked up the unit, I was getting DC voltage from the BD battery pack, but I mistakenly connected one of the ground wires to the black lead coming off the back of the headlamp (AC) instead of the ground lead from the battery pack.

    On the way in to work today, I realized my calibration setting was still to high for the speedometer/odometer and ended up setting it back to 700mm, which got it almost perfect. That's when I started looking at my connections again.

    -Joe
  8. Purcell69

    Purcell69 Mors ex Tenebris

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    Well, that didn't do it. I just went back to my previous setting.

    -Joe
  9. Purcell69

    Purcell69 Mors ex Tenebris

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    After going to the Acewell WS and reading the FAQ, I found instructions on speedometer calibration. While their set-up chart was mildly helpful, it turns out I need to reinstall the stock speedo cable and count the number of turns for on full revolution of the front tire and use that number to divide the rolling circumference of the front tire (in mm). Then put the total number into the computer for the speedometer calibration. The rolling circumference is 82.5" or 2096mm (rounded). Their chart listed a 21" front tire as being 1676mm, which I am guessing, did not account for the actual tire circumference. I'll get it all sorted out soon enough.

    -Joe
  10. Purcell69

    Purcell69 Mors ex Tenebris

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    Got it all sorted out. The revolutions for the speedometer drive with the stock front tire is 3:1, three revolutions of the speedometer/odometer drive for each full revolution of the front wheel. The circumference of the front wheel/tire is 2096mm which, divided by 3 comes in at 699 (rounded). Plug 699 into the Acewell for the circumference value and viola, the speedometer and odometer are accurate. WHAT A PITA! There was no electrical glitch after all, just poor/incomplete instructions.

    -Joe
  11. pwrtrippin

    pwrtrippin Been here awhile

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    I put an acewell computer on mine a couple weeks ago, I'm running the Acewell XR wheel speed sensor and have it set at 700. Seems to be really close +-2mph, I havent found an accurate radar sign to test it on yet. I definately agree that the setup instructions are a bit lacking but it can be figured out. Having had the Vapor in the past, which was installed on a Honda Hawk and never being able to get the tach to read reliably, I have to say I like the Acewell better, The speed display is larger and 2 button simplicity is easier to deal with. For mounting, I modified the Acewell bracket to mount down on the stock odometer screw holes, it keeps the top of the display down under the number plate and gives a cleaner installation IMO.
  12. river251

    river251 Been here awhile

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    I'm working with BD on a system for my R. They tell me rectifying AC to DC costs amps (and wattage). You don't include that so I am wondering if it's only a negligible amount (didn't ask BD that). Also, you run the CDI off a third coil. I didn't know the BD has a third coil?

    Thanks....
  13. river251

    river251 Been here awhile

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    You are running AC blinkers, headlights, and electric vest? Did you find special stuff, or does any light run off the AC? The maker of my electric clothes requires DC.... ????

    You can't run the system, the two lights, and the vest all at the same time, right?
  14. Eurobiker

    Eurobiker Vintage Cat Herder

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    Great thread, guys. I have a 92 XR600 with the Ricky Stator installed. I also have the Trail Tech Reg/Rect. and large 56,000 uf capacitor, which are not installed yet. They came with the bike and the PO never got around to installing them. Trail Tech shows 2 schematics; one with batteries under 4 Ah and one for batteries over 4 Ah. Which schematic (battery elimination option) should I use with this capacitor?

    [​IMG]
  15. Flyin Phil

    Flyin Phil Been here awhile

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    I have a couple quick questions, and this seemed as good a place as any to ask them...mechanically I can hold my own, but I'm at about a grade 1 level when it comes to electrical systems, so bear with me. :lol3

    I have a fairly standard BD DSK, and just installed a ricky stator, dual output. I ran one set into the BD rectifier. Any reason I can't just tape off the other output leads until the rest of the wiring is sorted out?

    Second, one the note of sorting out the rest of the wiring, I'm tempted to go to a full DC system, for a few reasons. Would this be do-able by running both outputs in parallel into a heavy duty 250W reg/rec like the one offered by Ricky?

    From there, it seems like running to the battery and then splitting the output between the BD harness, and to a small fuseblock to pull an HID light, gps, heated grips, vest etc would be the most logical way (to my grade 1 electrical mind) to go. Am I on the right path here?

    I was thinking full DC because I want to go to an HID auxillary light setup. I know I could run a halogen on AC, and an HID on DC, but I need dc for accessories anyway, and then the remainder of the ac energy would be wasted, no? 100W output only pulling a 60W headlight. I'd rather have it all pull from one pool so any leftover power can go to something useful, like keeping my fingers warm. :roflPlus my current halogen is already on the DC circuit as per the BD kit. the only thing on AC right now is my stock tail-light, which is about to get converted to an LED brake/tail setup anyway...so that'll be on the DC circuit as well.

    thanks in advance :freaky

    edit: my second thought is to get another rec/reg (my current one is 160W) and run the second output through that. then combining both 12v circuits in parallel should have me drawing from the same pool to avoid wasted energy. Am I missing something here, or is there any reason either of these two setups would not work?
  16. azcagiva

    azcagiva new orange flavor

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    My battery box has now been baja tested and it stayed on through the whole race.
    [​IMG]

    -John
  17. river251

    river251 Been here awhile

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    I got this from the files on the yahoo group. There are a couple others.
    I also suggest you call BD and ask for Mike or Diego. But it's kind of hard to get them to think beyond their standard solutions. I keep calling them back again with another question, but I think Mike told me paralleling them is done to handle big HID systems, but the downside is you have to keep your lights on or your system will be overloaded by the 200+ watts produced by the stator. I'm about to send my stator. My current plan is to have two batteries, regulators, and rectifiers, but I am still wanting to parallel the circuits somehow. I just can't quite seem to get over the hump with BD to think the system completely through so I'm comfortable. Maybe I need to find somebody else who is expert. Maybe somebody at Trail Tech. I also hear Ricky is very helpful, I think I'll call him too. And the other companies that make dual sport kits. Eventually I'll figure out the best plan.

    Also, see post below about battery. Mike suggested a motorcycle battery as a sufficient sink for the paralleled circuit. I would think since we don't have a starter, a much smaller battery than the XR650L battery would work, since we don't need cranking amps, which is what makes batteries big. Please report back what you learn, maybe we can figure it out together. I will be powering a Tecate HID/Halogen BD headlight, tail/brake light, blinkers, horn, and GPS.

    --------------------

    Headlight Performance - XR650R - Technical Discussion



    The XR alternator (and most dirt bikes for that matter) is much different than what you would see on a car or street bike. XR alternators do not have a variable electromagnetic field. Instead, they have permanent magnets built into the flywheel which means the stator puts out power in proportion to engine rpm. The power output increases as the magnets move faster past the coils. The regulator maintains a constant voltage by "burning off" the excess power over and above what is consumed by the motorcycle's electrical system. Since the alternator puts out Alternating Current or AC (that's why it's called an alternator), a rectifier is required to convert the AC to Direct Current or DC. With a dual sport kit, everything is hooked up to the rectifier since the battery, turn signals, and horn require DC. However, it is possible to power lights with AC and that's why the stock system does not comprise a rectifier. Reference this block diagram. Notice that both the rectifier and regulator draw current from the stator in parallel. Some of the alternator's current goes through the regulator and some goes through the rectifier. The amount of current that flows through the regulator is determined by the difference in power between what the motorcycle's electrical system is using and what the alternator is generating.

    When rewinding a stator, one is tempted to use the approach, "I'll just wind the hell out of it so it makes all kinds of power and hook up a 1000 Watt stadium light." I'm afraid it takes quite a bit more consideration than that. First is the power output required to keep the headlight at full brightness and the battery charged. Second is the limitation on how much power the regulator can dissipate. And finally, there is the limitation on how much current the wiring and rectifier can handle. If the alternator does not put out enough power, system voltage drops off, the battery can discharge, and the headlight will never see full brightness. If the alternator puts out too much power, it will overcome the ability of the regulator to burn off the excess which will most likely fry it along with the lights. If the alternator puts out enough power, but the wiring can't handle it, the wiring will get hot, resistance will go up, and the headlight will never see full brightness because power is getting lost in the wiring. There's also the risk of electrical fire if the wiring gets too hot. A tangent consideration is the ability of the headlight lens to withstand the heat generated by a high wattage bulb.

    When looking at power in general, it's proportional to the square of the voltage. Let us examine the equations V=IR and P=VI. Voltage equals current times resistance and power equals voltage times current. Solving for resistance, we find it's equal to voltage squared divided by power. Solving for power, we find it's equal to voltage squared divided by resistance. Headlamps are rated at 12 volts so plugging in the numbers, we get a resistance of 1.44 ohms for a 100 Watt bulb. Plugging the numbers into the second equation shows a 100 Watt bulb consumes around 140 Watts at 14 Volts and 70 Watts at 10 Volts. That's half the power with a difference of only 4 Volts! If we do the same calculations on a 60 Watt bulb, we find it consumes around 82 Watts at 14 Volts. That means a 60 Watt bulb, at full brightness, will emit over 10 more Watts of energy than a 100 Watt bulb at 10 Volts. The voltage of 14 is where full brightness is obtained because that is the voltage the regulator maintains. System voltage has to be a couple volts higher than that of the battery (12 Volts) to keep it fully charged. The point is that it's necessary to maintain 14 volts on the headlamp to utilize it's full potential. Running a lamp that has a rating too high for the output of the stator will result in a lower system voltage and possibly, a less powerful headlight.

    There's a couple little things I need to address here to satisfy questions brought to mind no doubt by those more versed in electrical theory. The actual (or usable) power delivered at the stator is somewhat less than the simple voltage times current calculation for a DC circuit. For a purely resistive AC circuit, real power can be found by multiplying peak voltage and current with the "root mean square" commonly known as RMS power. The "root mean square" is found through vector mathematics too involved for this discussion, but it has to do with the fact that no power is being delivered when the voltage passes through zero going from one peak to the next. The result is a factor of about 70%. After the stator output is rectified, the voltage is not perfectly smooth so you can't really treat it as pure DC either, but the difference is less due to the presence of the battery which smoothes the output quite a bit. However, the rectifier creates a drop of about 1 volt so the regulated voltage is actually about 15 peak at the stator helping to cancel out the difference with respect to the DC side of the rectifier. There are also reactive power losses in the stator due to the inductive nature of any wire coil. Headlamp resistances are not purely linear either. For the purpose of this discussion, I'm assuming direct current calculations and linear resistances since none of these factors are so significant as to invalidate any conclusions. Attempting to fully account for these characteristics would make the discussion overly complex anyway. In general, I've found the alternator needs to rate around double that of the headlight to get it up to full brightness just above engine idle.

    Ok, so how do I figure out how to rewind my stator for the headlight I want to run? Alright, first you have to consider the power rating. The standard halogen bulb available at any auto parts store is a 60/55 Watt. Using the equations from before, a 60 Watt bulb at 14 Volts draws almost 6 amps. The wiring used in the dual sport kits (and the stock system) is 20 gauge so that hits the current limit there. Also, there are no published current capacity specs for the rectifier part of the Tympanium rectifier/regulator that ships with most DSK's. From experience, I can tell you it's about the same as the 20 gauge wiring. Running a headlight greater than 60 Watts means a new headlight circuit with heavier gauge wiring that bypasses the rectifier by running directly off the stator. We also lose the luxury of being able to shut off the headlight. I'm sure you understand why. Properly powering a 100 Watt headlight requires at least a 200 Watt alternator. Since the regulator part of the rectifier/regulator overloads at about 150 Watts, the headlight must be on at all times to off-load the regulator and keep currents within tolerance. However, this limitation can be eliminated by use of a heavy duty rectifier/regulator which can handle the full brunt of a high power alternator. So with that in mind, do I want to go through the gyrations required to run a high wattage headlight? Well, at 14 Volts, a 60 Watt bulb burns about 82 Watts and a 100 Watt bulb burns about 140 Watts. That's quite a big difference in power, but to the naked eye, will that make a difference? I've read opinions both ways. However, using a dual lens, each with a 60/55W bulb, will double the light output and make a very noticeable difference. Using two Philips VisionPlus 60/55W bulbs (mentioned in the General topic of this section) would result in a very powerful system, equivalent in light output to that of an HID. Another consideration is the inability of most lens to withstand the intense heat generated by a 100 Watt bulb. Nasty things can happen like melted plastic and cracked glass. I found the problem with the Baja Designs lens is the surface of the plastic reflector gets too hot and melts causing it to cloud up and lose its reflective capacity. Other all-glass lenses may work better, but may suffer cracking especially if hit by water. If a lens can be employed capable of withstanding the heat, then going high power is a more attractive option. Going with a dual lens system would be ideal. Now, there are lots of different high wattage dual beam bulbs available, but a limitation with the standard rectifier/regulator is that the high and low beam wattage's must both be close to 100W to keep the load on the regulator within tolerance. Runing a 100/55W would put a standard regulator in an overload condition with the low beam on. It's probably best to go with a 100/90W or 100/80W. They are the most common of the high wattage bulbs anyway. There are 130/90W bulbs available, but that would definitely generate too much heat for the lens.

    Ok, I've decided between the standard and high wattage setup. How do I figure out what gauge of wire to use and how many turns and how many poles to wind? Well, a good place to start is the stock configuration. It uses 20 gauge wire with 4 poles at 75 turns per pole for a total of 300 turns. Since the open circuit voltage (voltage with nothing attached) is dependant on the number of turns, I think it's a good idea to stay close to that magic number since Honda has already done a lot of engineering we don't have the facilities to duplicate. Paul Gortmaker wrote a program that calculates coil resistance for a bunch of configurations and posted the results. Using Paul's utility, we find the stock coils have a resistance of about 0.6 Ohms. The utility was not available when I did my experimenting so I measured the coils with a precision Volt/Ohm meter instead. I've found results to be consistent. Setting up a ratio for the stock coil resistance versus the headlight resistance of a 35 Watt bulb (4 Ohms) we get a value of 0.15 to use as a baseline. So if we plug in 2.4 ohms for a 60W bulb, we want to see a coil resistance of about .36 Ohms. Using the utility and the 300 total turns magic number (plus a little for good measure), we can see that winding 8 poles with 18 gauge at 40 turns per pole results in a resistance really close to that. Conveniently, this configuration results in 4 even layers on each pole which is necessary for a clean wind. Using 10 poles at 32 turns per pole would make the wind messy and problematic. If we plug in 1.44 ohms for a 100 Watt bulb, we want to see a resistance of about 0.22 ohms. Winding 10 poles with 16 gauge wire at 32 turns per pole gets us real close to that.
  18. river251

    river251 Been here awhile

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    This is in fact what Mike at BD suggested I do if I parallel the two stator 125w circuits. How did you mount this? Is is an XR650L box? Can you take some pics of how you mounted it? Is it an L battery? I wonder if the weight is a problem to support?

    thanks....
  19. XRider

    XRider Almost Lifelike

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    You're right, the conversion of AC to DC is not 100% efficient. That's why I never try to pull the full 125 watts from the stator. I don't do it on the AC side ether. The stator only makes 250 watts at or above 4500 RPM. So in order to keep the lights from going real dim at idle I try to keep the load at around 85% of max output.

    Your stator has a third coil to power the CDI. It's actually already on there before BD rewinds it. If you look at your re-wound stator you'll notice 2 windings that look differant from the rest, that's your ignition power.
  20. river251

    river251 Been here awhile

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    This is from an earlier post on this thread, might be a good idea to read the whole thread, I will.

    http://www.advrider.com/forums/showpost.php?p=8891533&postcount=17