Countersteer or Die!

From what I have read, his point has been that at all speeds one must counter steer to initiate lean for a turn, and that once leaned you direct steer into the turn.

The apposing view has been that at a low enough speed one transitions from having to countersteer to lean before a turn to simply direct steering without needing to counter-steer first.

Exile the theorists!

Countersteering is the way you balance your bike, at all times. Newton's laws of motion are not optional. Your steps are discreet? Sorry, there's nothing discreet about this foolishness.

You're always steering into the turn, at all speeds, once a lean has been established in the direction of the turn. Duh?

Then he has changed his mind, which is great. But earlier in this thread, he directly disputed what I wrote above, and what you have written here. I'd be happy to find the post for you, but I put him on ignore a while back. He's a pretty toxic character.

The only word I would argue with in your statement is "must". There are options at low speeds, and situations in which countersteering is a bad idea. I know you don't think this is true.

I don't think anybody has said this, but maybe I missed something since I ran out of fucks to give. It's certainly not what I think or anything I've ever said. Again, I'm not going to waste either of our time restating a position I know you don't agree with. I just didn't want you or anyone else putting words in my mouth.

Absolutely they have, and it is the only reason that this thread has continued on and on.

Cognitive dissonance does funny things to the memory. The reason this thread goes on and on is almost entirely the work of one poster. This is quantifiably beyond dispute.

The truth is that virtually everyone in this discussion has agreed on maybe 90% of the principles involved, even if it doesn't feel like it in the moment. What your friend has done through most of it is insist on complete capitulation to exactly what he says, under a layer of ad hominem. If we were to subtract this weird need to upset people from the equation, it probably wouldn't have gone much past ten pages.

This is but one example of the opposition position. My memory is correct.

No, I haven't changed my mind. The physics remains the same.

That's the kind of gratuitous crap that made your friend so unpopular.

Compare this to what you described as the opposing view earlier. He's not saying what you're saying he is. He's saying you don't always have to lean the bike to turn it at low speeds, and that is true. It's also true that, if you do lean the bike at low speeds, countersteering isn't the only way to do it.

But you don't agree, I get that, and I will never change your mind.

Yes, you have to lean the bike when you turn, at any speed. If you haven't leaned, you aren't going to make it around the corner. 100% of the time.

There is lateral acceleration in the opposite direction of the turn at all speeds. You must lean to counter that force to keep from falling over. Not sometimes, but all times.

You seem to think that if you go slow enough laws of physics change.

They do not.

You're not trying to change my mind, you're trying to change physical reality.

And you're just trying to start this tire fire back up again.

Of course the laws of physics don't change. Ever, any of them. But not all of them are relevant to every situation. Laminar flow, for example... not relevant to turning a motorcycle at low speeds, but a law of physics that never changes. Surely this isn't so hard?

And please stop accusing me of saying things I have not said. It's just sad.

You've repeatedly asserted that you can choose not to lean in the direction of a turn at slow speeds. You are simply incorrect.

No

You dont have to lean the bike at slow speeds

No, the center of mass of the bike plus rider is always leaned in the direction of the turn at all speeds, absent outside forces.

You seem to think that if you go slow enough the laws of physics don't apply.

So the lateral acceleration of a turning motorcycle is not relevant if you go slow enough?

No, I believe that at slow speeds the forces are so weak that they can be ignored

The oft used bicycle wheel spun in outstretched hands comes to mind....

Slowly spin the wheel little to no gyroscopic force as compared to spinning it very fast