110LL Avgas "Horrid thing to do. Avgas is no bueno for a motorcycle"

Discussion in 'Trials' started by Jonny360, Jan 19, 2018.

  1. Jonny360

    Jonny360 Guest

    My old montesa seemed like it had a lot of knock on 91 octane 10% ethanol fuel. I bought 5 gallons of 110ll avgas to see if that helped, it didnt. But now that i've upgraded to a 2012 Sherco ST300 I was going to burn the rest of that fuel up. I've read lots about avgas and leaded fuel. Seems there is plenty of debate about its benefits and health hazards. But I haven't seen anything about it causing massive damage to the engine just that you'll get lead deposits on valves and spark plugs. Yet A beta dealer on my local group chimed in and said "Horrid thing toy do. Avgas is no bueno for a motorcycle". He has yet to explain why he feels that way. But has anyone else heard anything that negative about avgas? Finding race fuel or anything over 91octane in my area is pretty tough, but I can cross the street and buy avgas.
    #1
  2. Norman Foley

    Norman Foley Devotee of the Husqvarna Supporter

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    My new Scorpa is running on it and at least 5 other bikes at the Tryals Shop. These bikes all run well and have zero problems. All the new bikes that they sell... Scorpa, Sherco and Beta, get the first tank filled with Av Gas. I usually run VP Small Engine Fuel 94 Octane, but on the '18 I think I'll stay with Av Gas, as it is less expensive than VP.
    #2
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  3. I run leaded fuel (not avgas). I know a lot of people that do run avgas. It's fine.

    I wouldn't put it in a fuel injected montesa... No good for oxygen sensors. The new ones have a 'no Pb' sticker right on the tank.
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  4. Kiharaikido

    Kiharaikido Long timer Supporter

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    I run avgas in my Beta. I run it in my FI X Challenge as well but have gutted the cat.
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  5. Champe

    Champe Been here awhile

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    Too bad there is a thread title now that is misleading (wrong). This will distribute misinformation far and wide.

    Avgas is an excellent solution to the ethanol problem.

    Your "Beta dealer" is a liar, misinformed, or has stock in VP (which is also leaded).
    #5
  6. alpineboard

    alpineboard Been here awhile

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    Av LL 110 gas is Low lead by Aviation standards only, it actually has approx. X 1.0 or 2.0 the lead that was in gas in the 1970's. So do not be fooled by thinking it is low lead, it is not, it is actually high lead.
    am not kicking using leaded gas, just know what you getting into. Just mix that 110 for your desired octane to lower that higher lead content.

    Also AV gas has a grid type carbon chain which gives it a longer burn time for use in Airplanes that have a 6 inch diameter piston. So if you use AV gas in a small motor like a 3 inch piston or smaller, much of the burn time will take place in the expansion chamber/exhaust. So use a gas that is designed for 3 inch piston or smaller/small engine. Example VP race gas website info. The carbon chain with this small engine gas is a long fragile length, and burns more quickly than slow burn stuff. So the entire combustion will take place within the piston/cylinder, and thus more power. keep searching, there is more info out there on this topic. have gone over this before, in this thread. Sunoco race gas .com for starters, etc google
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  7. Champe

    Champe Been here awhile

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    No reason to use 110 LL. You can, but it is a waste of money and octane for our application. 100LL is the more common avgas, that is also best for older airplanes.

    If you prefer to breathe MTBE (the other octane booster that is not lead or alcohol) be my guest. It is every bit as harmful as lead.
    The EPA is very concerned about this stuff leaking into ground water recently. It does not cause brain damage like lead. It causes cancer instead.

    Most of the piston aircraft do not have particularly large cylinders. My Cessna 150 had a 4 cylinder 100hp motor - not that much different from a one cylinder 25 hp motor.

    I have not been to the VP website. I am sure it is full of marketing hype. How else could they sell their product for 3 or 4 times the cost of already expensive avgas ?

    A few years ago when I was roadracing we had the team's 3 Buells tested on the same dyno, one after the other. My teammates were running VP. I ran avgas. My bike made the most horsepower.
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  8. SportSawyer

    SportSawyer 4RT Herder

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    The "Racing Version" (3ED & 4ED models) Montesa 4RT260 and 300RR sold in the US don't have oxygen sensors. They run open-loop. The "Street Version" bikes and the 4RIDE sold in the EU have oxygen sensors. At least until the "Full Power Kit" is put on, and the oxygen sensor and catalytic converter are removed, along with a wiring change to put the ECU into a different map.
    #8
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  9. Either way, the new 300RR and I presume the 260 have no lead stickers right on the tank.

    As for avgas or VP, etc being overkill, people are missing the point. I don't care about the higher octane ratings. The reason we use them is that it's the only non ethanol fuel available in a lot of places.
    #9
  10. slicktop

    slicktop Long timer

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    My witches brew.
    1gl sunoco 110 std. mixed with 4gl 100ll avgas. About $26.00.
    #10
  11. Champe

    Champe Been here awhile

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    My 2017 300RR does not have a "no lead" sticker.
    Honda is on the environmentalist bandwagon though, so it is posssible they want to emphasize compatibility with ethanol fuels. And there is no reason to get special fuel for it. Runs great on E10 pump gas. Runs great on premix too. I bet it would run fine on avgas as well - but it is not necessary.

    I use avgas in my 2-stroke motorcycles, lawn equipment, and chainsaws. Like Grant says - it's not for the octane - rather, for eliminating alcohol.
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  12. PSchrauber

    PSchrauber Long timer

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    It's a bad thing to use leader fuel. Interesting wise was it the US stopping producing fuel with tetraethyl lead.

    This stuff is the reason who AVgas has 110 octane and can be used by old airplane engines that have soft valve seats.

    The problem is it is super dangerous for health and for the environment.

    There are better fuels available that burn soot free like Swedish Aspen or Stihl Motomix.

    If there would be an demand your industries would produce super+ fuel as they do in Europe like Aral Ultimate, Shell V-Power or BP-Ultimate would be available.
    That gas has 100 octane or more and no Bioethanol inside and it is too lead free.

    The Aspen racing fuel is the best stuff you can get, but supply is not so easy that is a problem.
    #12
  13. 2whlrcr

    2whlrcr gooligan

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    I ran non ethanol car gas in my 7ECA. So avgas isn't specifically required for certain aircraft. But for what it's worth, the local A&P who dirt tracked raced, always ran 100LL in his bikes.
    #13
  14. motomofo

    motomofo Been here awhile

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    Shercos have had, or used to have, a no lead sticker on them for years.
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  15. motobene

    motobene Motoing for 49 years Supporter

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    Lots of discussion and controversy swirls around materials and processes that cannot be directly observed working, for whatever reason.

    Water, for example. Water has 70 or so anomalous behaviors. Solid science, weird behaviors, and pseudoscience surround 'mere' water.

    There is potentially lots to discuss, and some of that will inevitably wander off into religious territory... into magnification of risks, for example.

    Oils, fuels, spark plugs... they all add to these discussions.

    My experience has been that if you moderate statements of risk or benefit, you will err toward real world practicality.

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  16. lineaway

    lineaway Long timer

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    Racing and trials is two different things. You want more power and the bike to run better, learn clutch control. Tommi Avila came to new Mexico to do a trials school. Pulled a new Gasser out of a crate. The thing ran terrible at San Ysidro with the stock jetting. He just reved it more.
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  17. Norman Foley

    Norman Foley Devotee of the Husqvarna Supporter

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    It's about consistent fuel with some window of storage . New York gasoline is formulated the same a California's and we have more cold weather, so we get a weird winter formula. Even Ethanol Free fuel here can be crap and then add in getting it from a mixing pump that someone just pumped 10% Ethanol ( Which can be way over 10% in reality) and it can really be crap. Race Fuel and Av Gas are as much about running decent and not cleaning carbs after a week of sitting, as anything else.
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  18. Jonny360

    Jonny360 Guest

    What about the slower burn mentioned above by alpineboard? Have you noticed a feeling of decreased power? My new bike is a 300 which is above my skill level anyways so a reduction in power would actually be good for me ha. How about the extra lead, I haven't seen any real numbers but supposedly AVgas lead levels are significantly above leaded race gas? Have you had issues with rings or excessive fouling of plugs? On another post I had people calling me an idiot for running AVgas. Just trying to figure out what to run in the future. The pump gas seemed ok but a downside for me is that my schedule only has me home for 2 weeks at a time then 2-4 weeks away. So my bike does end up sitting for spells as does my stored gas.
    #18
  19. If it's sitting a lot, and you're worried about leaded, do some searching and see if you can find some unleaded non ethanol fuel. Sunoco for example sells various octane levels in 5 gallon pails. Same with VP. I would run unleaded, but I burn through so much gas I end up dealing with a million 5 gallon pails laying around. I can get leaded at the pump.
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  20. lotsa5s

    lotsa5s Adventurer

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    I've run everything from AV gas, pump gas, ethanol, ethanol free, 89, 91, 93 and on and on. Can't tell one bit of difference at my level.
    #20
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