110LL Avgas "Horrid thing to do. Avgas is no bueno for a motorcycle"

Discussion in 'Trials' started by Jonny360, Jan 19, 2018.

  1. UstaKood

    UstaKood Been here awhile

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    52 days until Spring !

    C'mon Spring !

    :happay
    #81
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  2. Brewtus

    Brewtus Buffoonery, Inc.

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    Amen to that, brother!! :thumb
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  3. lineaway

    lineaway Long timer

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    43 days till time change, that`s what I need!
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  4. motobene

    motobene Motoing for 49 years Supporter

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    What? I know you fellows ride in winter!
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  5. lineaway

    lineaway Long timer

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    But with the time change I get to ride at home in the evenings.
    #85
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  6. Brewtus

    Brewtus Buffoonery, Inc.

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    And we get back to Trials threads instead of rehashing fuel, oil, and squirrel-watching threads.
    #86
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  7. jonnyc21

    jonnyc21 Trials Ninja

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    Squirrel? Where? (Whips head around looking for the squirrel!). :jack

    :hide
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  8. fprintf

    fprintf Been here awhile

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    Bringing up an old thread that I participated in long before I bought my Beta 200. I have been using AV Gas 100LL that I buy at my local airport. However I have been running quite a lot of it, I've been through 2.5 gallons in a month with all the riding I've been doing. By switching from VP110 at $10 a gallon at the pump to the airport AV Gas my fuel bill has decreased significantly. In the meantime, the bike does seem to be running fine on it, though it might be in my head but it almost sounds different, a sharper crack on the exhaust note.

    @Champe mentioned a Yankee sensibility way earlier in the thread, and I can totally see that. I'm tempted to mix it 50/50 with the 93 Octane 10% ethanol pump gas just so I can stretch my dollars a little further. :-)
    #88
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  9. jonnyc21

    jonnyc21 Trials Ninja

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    Good to hear about some long term use with both the VP110 and the AV gas. If that was all I could get that was ethanol free I would sure consider mixing it and keeping it in a nice container.
    #89
  10. lineaway

    lineaway Long timer

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    Well it is winter almost and I brought up the subject yesterday. We are up to nine lications on Albuquerque with nonethal at the pumps. I am spoiled as I get mine which is next to our town dump. I have to make that trip weekly anyway.
    #90
  11. motobene

    motobene Motoing for 49 years Supporter

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    My family business moves millions of gallons of all sorts of fuels. Our newer stores are offering more choices, with some now including non-ethanol gasoline, which costs the customer more but is very popular. The ethanol gasolines choices, if more than two are an at-the-pump blend between regular and premium. E85? I hardly ever see it and there's not much reason to use it in anything. E15? I hope that will generally stay away a while longer.

    Non-ethanol gasoline is not 'pure' gasoline. Pure gasoline is as non existent as a racially 'pure' human. Want pure? Try camp stove/lamp fuel, aka 'white gas.' Is that 'pure' gasoline? 'Pure' naphtha? Even that gets weird. What is the exact difference between 'just' naphtha and 'just' gasoline in terms of hydrocarbon chain length:patch

    Naptha.JPG

    Uh....

    All gasolines are mixtures fractionated hydrocarbons (mixes of carbon-chain lengths) with other chemicals, some quite nasty. Lose the oxygenate ethanol and you need to replace it with, say, another oxygenate, like methyl tert-butyl ether:yikes

    Pick your poison!:beer
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  12. Bronco638

    Bronco638 Nobody Home

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    @fprintf - you're burning enough fuel that you really don't need to worry about fuel with ethanol. So, you could run pump gas as long as you continue with your current ride schedule. However, when it becomes too cold to ride or too cold to ride often, then you can switch back to non-ethanol fuel.

    Personally, I've run Sunoco Standard 110 (formerly CAM2 Purple 114) and 100LL AvGas thru my '14 Sherco ST300 and '18 Sherco ST250 with no harmful effects (that I could tell). What I really appreciate is that the bike can sit for some time and then fire right up. I've had 100LL in both my small generators for two years (they see very little use, obviously). They start within three pulls no matter how long they sit. So, for me, using non-ethanol fuel (and 100LL is my only local choice) is more about keeping the carb from getting gummed up than it is about horsepower.
    #92
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  13. motobene

    motobene Motoing for 49 years Supporter

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    Recently I worked on a WR450F. I rebuilt the FCR carburetor, did a bunch of electrical work and other things. My friend thought I had goofed up the rebuild of the complex FCR carburetor or messed up on the electrical because it was balky starting. I'm like, "Uh, no. It was all very high-level work." He wanted to pull off the carb to get into it again. I said, "OK, but let's check some other things first."

    The bike was in the garage, so one of the first things was to drain the float bowl fuel into a small container. What came out was yellow and stinky. AHA! We removed the tank and dumped that fuel, replacing it with fresh E10 premium. The bike fired right up and ran very well.

    So what happened?

    That fuel was bought at a remote station and put into a plastic fuel can. The fuel had sat in the station's tank too long and then in a plastic fuel container and acquired some moisture. I didn't know this. We checked the Yamaha's tank fuel. It looked and smelled OK, but any further interaction with the atmosphere through the carburetor vent tubes was enough to push the fuel into the first problem stage: yellow and odd smelling. For some reason that kind of fuel just doesn't like to fire off a cold engine. A later stage in E10 fuel saturation has cheesy precipitants dropping out and clogging jets. Thankfully that didn't happen with the freshly rebuilt carburetor!

    E10 fuel from high-volume stations that's kept dry and the float bowls drained for storage and I just don't worry. Of course if you want to be for sure for sure, buy that non-ethanol gasoline and still store with empty float bowls so you don't get the water blob in the bottom of the bowl.
    #93
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  14. motobene

    motobene Motoing for 49 years Supporter

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    FYI, the MSDS composition of Phillips 100 low lead:
    100LL.JPG

    There's the lead, and then there is just 'gasoline' with five identified hazardous constituents. Yummy!:tb

    Here's an SDS document on low sulfur summer blend gasoline. Lots of yummy chemicals in there:

    https://www.neste.fi/static/ktt/13866_eng.pdf
    #94
  15. 10K

    10K Trail Runner

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    Running C90 at 80/1 with no issues.
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  16. Nodabs

    Nodabs Been here awhile

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    Yep, as the gas sits the "lights" evaporate off and you end up with more and more of the base material that don't evaporate very easy. That is why things get hard to start.

    I've ran 10% ethanol in more or less everything for the last 45 years with zero problem. It is next to imposable to buy ethanol free in my area seeing that the world's
    biggest ethanol producing facility is less than 5 miles away from where I sit.

    And don't get me started on the comments about using food for fuel. Believe me, ADM takes everything from the corn including the smell and produces something from it. The farmers around here joke that they sell their corn to ADM at a depressed price and haul cattle feed back to their animals after everything has been removed from the raw material. So is the progress of man.
    #96
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  17. motobene

    motobene Motoing for 49 years Supporter

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    I think you solved it, Nodabs, as to why the fuel can yellow and get hard to start, well almost. Maybe the lighter fractions do evap out the vent tubes some, but the yellowing problem just doesn't happen for me with fresh E10, only the stuff that's very close to water saturation. Or so it seems, as I had no way to actually measure percent saturation. Odd, how fuel can look clear and smell fresh in the tank, but go bad inside of a week in a float bowl (in our case with the 450F, inside of two days when humidity was moderate, not extreme).

    The thing about fuels is, it's like oil... simple thinking applied to very complex chemistry are converted by the hoi polloi into and wild speculation. Some of us know a bit more about fuels and do scrum, but still, it's like lichens. There are a maybe 6 people on earth that actually understand them.

    ADM takes the smell too. That's funny!
    #97
  18. Bronco638

    Bronco638 Nobody Home

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    @motobene Isn't the issue with E10 is that the ethanol is susceptible to absorbing moisture which causes the fuel to go 'bad' (as opposed to evaporation)?

    I'm sure we can beat this subject to death but all I know is that non-ethanol fuel, that's highly refined, lasts a long time (much longer than ethanol laced fuels) and that works for me. :D
    #98
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  19. motobene

    motobene Motoing for 49 years Supporter

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    Yes. Alcohol loves to combine with water. It's why many fuel additives contain alcohols... specifically to combine with water and remove it from the fuel system by passing it through combustion.

    We're fine as long as there isn't so much water that the capacity is exceeded and then the fuel just sits there stewing.
    #99
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  20. charlie chitlins

    charlie chitlins Adventurer

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    Local airport has 100 low lead, no ethanol for $5/gallon.
    I run everything on it, including chainsaws, weed eaters and lawnmowers.
    Everything runs great.
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