180mm clutch disk BMW vs VW

Discussion in 'GS Boxers' started by hasenwerk, Feb 15, 2010.

  1. GS Addict

    GS Addict Pepperfool Supporter

    Joined:
    Sep 24, 2006
    Oddometer:
    6,695
    Location:
    Sunshine Coast B.C.
    Suffice it to say the improved shaft is substantially harder than the OE one.
    I still believe periodic lubrication is a must and that's what I plan for next winter.
    #81
  2. Poolside

    Poolside Syndicated

    Joined:
    Apr 1, 2003
    Oddometer:
    11,888
    Location:
    Silicon Beach, CA
    <BR>
    Def, the 'balanced' I was referring to isn't spin balancing. It's having the drive load centered along the clutch hub splines. But due to the design of the gearbox/bellhousing/clutch actuator/crankshaft, that 'balance' isn't possible. The clutch friction disk must be offset from the center of the clutch hub splines.

    That offset, combined with no pilot bearing, is what allows the clutch spline wear. If the clutch disk were centered on the clutch hub, then acceleration loads would not cause the clutch hub to momentarily flex on the disk 'web'.

    I don't mean vehicle acceleration loads caused from the throttle. I'm talking about clutch disk acceleration loads, that happen during every upshift and downshift, when the clutch is disengaged.

    If you are referring to 'spin balanced', I'm pretty sure an item like a clutch disk would be checked for spin balance no mater who made it.


    <BR>
    #82
  3. def

    def Ginger th wonder dog

    Joined:
    Feb 28, 2004
    Oddometer:
    14,290
    Location:
    The woods and mountains of Alabama
    Oh, and balance your tires/wheels...a few grams static out-of balance becomes a significant force at high speeds causing vibration, tire flat spotting and possible tire failure.

    Anything that rotates or reciprocates should be balanced. I have the propeller shafts on my motorhomes trued and balanced...the difference is significant.
    #83
  4. Poolside

    Poolside Syndicated

    Joined:
    Apr 1, 2003
    Oddometer:
    11,888
    Location:
    Silicon Beach, CA
    <BR>
    #84
  5. Andrew

    Andrew Optimus Primer Super Moderator Super Supporter

    Joined:
    Sep 25, 2001
    Oddometer:
    22,657
    Location:
    Eastbania
    When someone looks down on a clutch from above, looking straight though the splined hub, along its axis of rotation, everything looks pretty well centered and balanced to start with. And if not quite centered or balanced, it's not hard to grind a small amount of metal from the heavy side to bring it back into rotational balance.

    But that's not the orientation Poolside is talking about.

    Look at the clutch disk from the side - normal (orthogonal) to the axis of rotation - and you'll notice the disk is offset from the center of the hub. That is what Poolside brought up, the bulk of the hub extends further to the rear than the disk. I get it now, and wonder what can be done to counter-act the imbalance.
    #85
  6. Poolside

    Poolside Syndicated

    Joined:
    Apr 1, 2003
    Oddometer:
    11,888
    Location:
    Silicon Beach, CA
    <BR>
    That's the ticket Andrew. Axial offset, not radial offset. An axial offset of the clutch hub which causes a radial rotation of the clutch hub axis. Like the earth on its axis.

    I've though about possible solutions over the years, it's sort of a pastime with all the high-annoyance engineering on these bikes.

    Short of a clutch/flywheel redesign, I think the longer spline shaft is a good idea, if rather expensive.

    A less-involved solution would be to add a splined coupling to the output shaft. A coupling splined on the ID and OD. The ID splines are made to fully engage the gearbox splines. The OD splines are a larger diameter, and fit a clutch disk having a larger diameter hub. That solution will put a damaged input spline back into service. The full length coupling makes use of both the unused portions (the gearbox end), and the undamaged portions (the crankshaft end), of the input splines.

    And from the fantasy department, I have some sketches showing a dry multiplate clutch fitted in place of the OE clutch. It makes use of the center actuator, and it has a pilot bearing. A setup like that removes a vast amount of flywheel inertia.

    Now, imagine that setup with an automatic (ball-bearing-ramp) clutch, and a one-way drive (slipper) clutch!

    <BR>
    #86
  7. Drif10

    Drif10 Accredited Jackass

    Joined:
    Jun 12, 2003
    Oddometer:
    50,764
    Location:
    Gates of Moscow
    Very good thread, definitely gonna be watching this. :thumb

    :lurk
    #87
  8. Anorak

    Anorak Woolf Barnato Supporter

    Joined:
    Jul 23, 2004
    Oddometer:
    52,029
    Location:
    San Rafael, Marin County
    Hell yeah. All sorts of good info. If Hasenwork's sintered clutch is a go and I don't see why not, it will be a great option for people.
    #88
  9. hasenwerk

    hasenwerk Long timer

    Joined:
    Sep 11, 2008
    Oddometer:
    1,353
    Location:
    Quesnel, BC
    Small set back in the build process. They can build me a ceramic four puck disc with a 6.5mm thickness but it would be in their terms "already half way worn out". So I have an 8mm thick unit coming to me to test - ships Monday morning from the USA so I would give it a week to be here. Coincidence that the Touratech disc is the same thickness??? No biggie, I'll use 1.5mm shims as TT recommends and all for about one quarter of the cost of the TT unit. :clap
    #89
  10. Poolside

    Poolside Syndicated

    Joined:
    Apr 1, 2003
    Oddometer:
    11,888
    Location:
    Silicon Beach, CA
    <BR>
    It seems that if the top plate is shimmed out 1.5mm, then the pressure plate wouldn't be able to use the last 1.5mm of friction material. Is the plan to remove the shims after the clutch disk wears down 1.5mm?


    <BR>
    #90
  11. OzRob

    OzRob Been here awhile

    Joined:
    Jul 28, 2003
    Oddometer:
    723
    Location:
    Australia, Snowy mountains NSW
    Top thread information...many thanks...should be a sticky...as there has been a rumour for the past 12 years that a VW clutch would fit...but no solid confirmation....
    Perhaps having the VW clutch disk without machining down the spline ( if it works ) would be better for the gearbox input spline as there would spread the torque loading to more spline area so the input shaft splines would not wear out as quickly...however 1100 gearbox splines are not a issue like the 1200's
    Does any one have the OEM VW part number for the solid clutch disk, as I have to lube the drive shaft splines in a few weeks so I might as well test the clutch disk VW option.
    #91
  12. hasenwerk

    hasenwerk Long timer

    Joined:
    Sep 11, 2008
    Oddometer:
    1,353
    Location:
    Quesnel, BC
    If you go to the VW dealer and as for a 1946-66 Beetle clutch, they will laugh - Ford doesn't sell model T parts any more either! :evil

    Fortunately there are a lot of places selling aftermarket Beetle parts so a simple internet search will come up with a disc for you for about $50

    I am going to measure here to day or tomorrow and see if there is any reason why one would have to machine off the last 5mm of hub. I am thinking not as well.
    #92
  13. RallyRebel

    RallyRebel Concussioneer

    Joined:
    Jul 3, 2007
    Oddometer:
    22
    Location:
    Middle O' Florida
    Hey, how about these guys: http://www.kennedyeng.com/vwpo_dis.htm They quote $72 for a four-puck 180mm unsprung clutch that looks to be the ticket. My clutch has finally sidelined me at 110K miles so I'm onboard for something new too!

    [​IMG]
    #93
  14. MJS

    MJS Long timer

    Joined:
    Dec 23, 2005
    Oddometer:
    2,771
    Location:
    Off the grid in San Felipe, Baja
    OEM # 111 141 031E (can't believe I remember that from my days selling VW parts - about 30 yrs ago)
    #94
  15. Yeahbaby

    Yeahbaby Adventurer

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 2008
    Oddometer:
    77
    Location:
    Vancouver USA
    Let's keep this going guy's..........my trans is sitting on the workbench waiting for light at the end of the tunnel. I'd buy the Kennedy unit if I knew for sure it would work. What are they using for spacers on the TT unit? :krusty
    #95
  16. hasenwerk

    hasenwerk Long timer

    Joined:
    Sep 11, 2008
    Oddometer:
    1,353
    Location:
    Quesnel, BC
    I am just about there... 180mm four puck ceramic in hand, awaiting the gear position sensor from BMW and it is assembly time...
    #96
  17. scooteraug02

    scooteraug02 Dog Rancher

    Joined:
    Feb 18, 2003
    Oddometer:
    4,580
    Location:
    Atlanta, GA

    Take pics and post!!!!!
    #97
  18. hasenwerk

    hasenwerk Long timer

    Joined:
    Sep 11, 2008
    Oddometer:
    1,353
    Location:
    Quesnel, BC
    Sigh... at least a week away... but yes, pictures will be posted.
    #98
  19. Poolside

    Poolside Syndicated

    Joined:
    Apr 1, 2003
    Oddometer:
    11,888
    Location:
    Silicon Beach, CA
    <BR>What are you using for spacers?


    <BR>
    #99
  20. hasenwerk

    hasenwerk Long timer

    Joined:
    Sep 11, 2008
    Oddometer:
    1,353
    Location:
    Quesnel, BC
    I have all parts here and tomorrow I am going to assemble my bike. Yes, you have to mill down the neck of the VW spline - just too tall to give any floating when the clutch is not engaged.

    Question for the group. This clutch setup is different than what I am used to. When I have the clutch "in" as is not engaged - the disc is stationary and the flywheel assembly is not. But, what is spinning on what at this point? Normally I am used to seeing a bearing in there - but none on the BMW. I am assuming the rod from the gearbox pushes the spring plate forward and therefore no pressure between the two pressure plates allowing the disc to spin freely in between them. The rivets on the disc that I have are beefier than the BMW unit. Should I be concerned about the rivets touching the spring plate or is this just how it all works?