1966 Ducati 160 Monza Jr Rebuild

Discussion in 'Old's Cool' started by DesmoDog, Nov 1, 2009.

  1. HapHazard

    HapHazard Waiting for Gudenov

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    #41
  2. DesmoDog

    DesmoDog Desmo was my dog. RIP big guy.

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    As I remember it he was in business at some other location, he moved from there, and recently built another building to put it all in. I think those pics were taken during the move.

    From what I've heard from people who should know, it's not a case of hoarding, the guy is overwhelmed with all the work ahead of him. A flood of e-mail, the phone constantly ringing, trying to stock everything in the new facilities, trying to pack and ship orders, and a farm to maintain besides.

    I'm telling ya, he needs to do internships! :D
    #42
  3. BOOTLACE

    BOOTLACE Bikie Scum.

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    What happened, was a lot, (a LOT!), more shipping containers turned up, than what was expected....
    Tough gig.
    #43
  4. MayerMR

    MayerMR Been here awhile

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    #44
  5. anonny

    anonny What could go wrong?

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    Ya kinda sad, the old Gt left to rust outside is a shame. :cry
    #45
  6. DesmoDog

    DesmoDog Desmo was my dog. RIP big guy.

    Joined:
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    I've been working on the rearsets lately. I might end up not using anything I've done so far but you can only do so much of this in your head, the time comes you have to start trying a few things.

    [​IMG]

    The shift lever on the engine is from Road and Race in Australia. The bolts holding the rearset bracket on are just what I had handy. The final product will be countersunk/flathead so they are flush with the bracket.

    [​IMG]

    I stole the template for the brake lever off of the Motoscrubs.com site. They've got a lot of info on these things, along with a forum dedicated to Ducati singles.
    http://www.motoscrubs.com/

    The space from the footpeg to the brake lever peg feels a little long to me, but I can't move it all that much. Basically if I decide to move it I may have to remake the lever - I don't think there's enough room to get it far enough away from the existing mounting hole yet not be in line with the thick part of the kickstart. Hmm...

    The footpeg is Delrin - I wanted to see if I could get away with rigid pegs before playing around with aluminum. Looks like I'll need folding pegs. There's enough room to clear if you position your foot just right on the kickstart, but the kickstart won't be in this position at the top of it's travel so there's no good reminder. I can imagine I wouldn't be happy when (not if) I forgot about holding my foot just right and ended up kicking the peg. Buying some folding pegs seems like a prudent course of action...

    I seriously considered buying some Tarozzi rearsets but truth be told, my toy fund isn't what it used to be and I have to stop spending money every time I need something for this bike! (That said, I reserve the right to buy a set at a future date when I'm feeling more generous)
    #46
  7. DesmoDog

    DesmoDog Desmo was my dog. RIP big guy.

    Joined:
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    Ok, now I mean it. I'm serious about getting this bike done sometime next summer. I've dialed back the guitar obsession and am once again doing at least one thing related to this bike each day.

    One issue I'm dealing with is the exhaust pipe. I bought a replacement about six months back, but have discovered it has issues. The angle is wrong so the muffler would hit the ground if installed.
    [​IMG]

    On closer inspection I found that the flange and exhaust nut don't match up very well. I bought it from overseas so the chances of a return are slim.
    [​IMG]

    I'm hoping I can cut off the flange and weld on a new one at a different orientation to match the nut. If I do it right the repair won't even show, but in thinking about it, making the flange line up with the nut is going to make the angle even worse? I just sent an email to the vender, I can't be the only one who's discovered this, so maybe someone else has worked out a fix already. Or maybe I'll break down and buy a high pipe for it and hope THAT one fits, somehow, with the muffler I already have...

    I got little further on the rear sets. Decided that .75" was too small for the pegs so I made a mock up out of 1" diameter aluminum to settle on some dimensions. Still non-folding as you can see... I also put a bearing in the lever so it could be mounted as intended. Bought the bolts and tool to countersink the mounting bolts but didn't get that far before I bolted it all up again.
    [​IMG]

    It was right about here when I started to really like the idea of going with the stock footpegs. I realize that clubmans and stock pegs are typically frowned upon, but Ducati themselves have done it with clip ons and after sitting on the bike and faking the position (but not making any Vrooom VROOOoom sounds, I swear!) makes me think it would work. It would solve the issue of kickstart clearance, I wouldn't need a folding peg, I could also then use the stock brake and shifter linkages, and to top it off, it would look more stock than my fabbed up rearsets. The downside is the stock mounts are bent. I didn't bother fixing them when the frame was bare since I had no intention of using them. I'm going to tear it down to the frame again anyway so I'll give it a shot then and see if i can do it. Even if I have to do some paint repair, it's not in an area you can see very well when the bike is together.

    The rearset parts got tossed on the shelf for possible use on my 350. With those out of the way, I decided it was time to tackle the engine rebuild.

    A couple pages ago I posted the details of my big mistake in pulling the clutch basket off. Here's a reminder:
    [​IMG]

    Thanks to Rich Lambrechts, here's how the case looks now:
    [​IMG]

    New bearings are on the way, but I seem to have misplaced the bushing for the kickstart shaft now!

    And that's pretty much where it stands. Hopefully my progress reports will start showing up a little more regularly now...
    #47
  8. kraut.burner

    kraut.burner "Fun Club" President

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    SF Bay Area
    this looks great!

    Im diggin the paintjob :clap
    #48
  9. DesmoDog

    DesmoDog Desmo was my dog. RIP big guy.

    Joined:
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    When I got the case back, my goal was to have the bottom end put together by the end of the year. I made it with 32 hours to spare. Woo Hoo! (By bottom end I mean having the case halves bolted back together with all the appropriate bits in place)

    I've already shown the repaired case. From there I installed all new bearings and then test fit the crank with no shims to find out what sort of sideplay it had.

    [​IMG]
    No need to get TOO anal about the measurement here as I had to recheck everything with the shims installed. Speaking of shims - as it turns out the shims needed to do the crank are readily available from McMaster Carr. I got a few thicknesses with a 1" ID and they worked great - it's a 25mm shaft and the Ducati specific parts are 25.5mm ID.

    [​IMG]
    Speaking of cranks, does anyone know what the "-10" is for on there?

    [​IMG]
    I also got shims for the small end of the shift drum - it's the shaft in the middle on the bottom with the flat machined in it. I used 16mm ID shims here, again from McMaster Carr. The real reason I took that shot though is it reminded me of when I first saw an engine pulled apart. I forget how old I was, around 10 I think, but I was surprised and slightly disappointed at how simple it looked. I was imagining much more magical things than simple connecting rods and a crank shaft...

    [​IMG]
    And there it is, back together again just in time for the new year. Now comes the fun part - shimming the bevel gears. Well in fact shimming the bevels isn't rocket science, I've got a wide selection of shims ready so no big deal there. Timing the cam will likely be the fiddly part. If it's like my roundcase was, the timing could be way off. Hopefully an offset key will be all it needs. Hmm... I wonder if I can even buy offset keys for this thing???


    EDIT: Oh yeah, about the exhaust pipe. I contacted the vendor and he's getting more made with the correct bends. I should have one in my hot little hands long before I actually NEED it.
    #49
  10. DesmoDog

    DesmoDog Desmo was my dog. RIP big guy.

    Joined:
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    D'oh!

    I had lockwashers on my list of things to buy but apparently never did.. Anyway, shimming the bevel was trivial. Nothing changed so the factory shims worked fine.

    [​IMG]
    #50
  11. DesmoDog

    DesmoDog Desmo was my dog. RIP big guy.

    Joined:
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    Michigan, USA
    Proceeding at my typical glacial pace... note to self - do not store engine parts in multiple containers for periods of over four years... I spend way too much time searching for parts that I know I have. Today I found a shim, some bolts, and a plate the I had safely stashed away so they wouldn't get lost. Too bad I already replaced the shim and bolts because I couldn't find them. The good news is, the OEM shim is the same thickness as the size I used, so I guess my measurements were good.

    I rewired the stator since the old wire had gotten brittle. I thought finding suitable wire would be an issue but fellow bevelhead lister Mike Cecchini sent me some helpful information on what type of wire to look for (Thanks again, Mike!) and I ended up finding it at my local True Value hardware store.

    Per Mike's info I bought some SJEOOW wire or "power cable" I think they call it. SJEOOW is rated for -50C to 105C. Some guys have been running wires with lower temp ratings and haven't had any issues, so I'm hoping this is good even though I realize oil temps can get higher than that if the engine's run hard. Mike is searching for wire with a higher temp rating but so far has only found it in red. The stuff I used has the specs printed on it, but I'm going to install it so the writing isn't easily visible once it's on the bike.

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    Time to install the flywheel. On Ducati singles the flywheel has to be timed correctly as it's part of the ignition system (this bike can run with no battery) I don't know the specifics since I'm allergic to electrickery, so I just accept that it has to be done. The line on the flywheel is the timing mark. The specs on where this mark is supposed to be is cleverly hidden in the shop manual but after consulting multiple books numerous times I found it. Then I noticed that there are two marks near the hub of the flywheel. I'm not sure if they are marked at the factory? I didn't think so, this may be the work of a previous owner. In any case, I checked them out and they are in the right position to use as timing marks, so I just lined them up with the gear's keyway and I was good to go.

    [​IMG]


    Next comes the kickstart gears. If you ever try to kickstart a narrowcase Ducati and the kicker doesn't engage, try leaning the bike to the right side. What sometimes happens is that forked spring pushing down on the gear will break (actually most bikes have TWO of those springs installed) and when that happens, the gear won't engage anymore. When you lean it to the right there's a chance that gravity will do it's thing and drop the gear into place.

    [​IMG]

    All that's left on this side is the clutch basket. Well, the clutch and pressure plates too I suppose but I'm not putting that stuff on quite yet. I have a couple other things to do first. Not the least of which is to figure out where the hell I put them...

    [​IMG]
    #51
  12. DesmoDog

    DesmoDog Desmo was my dog. RIP big guy.

    Joined:
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    Michigan, USA
    Houston, we have a problem. I knew something was wrong when I tried to torque the head bolts and the engine got hard to turn over.

    [​IMG]

    The clip isn't in it's correct position in that photo - it's supposed to be in the slot above the coupler. But, the slot for the clip doesn't clear the coupler. I think the new cylinder base gasket is thinner than the original, so the cylinder/head are a touch shorter than they should be. With the clips in place, when the head gets torqued the cam drive gets pushed out of shape and the gears don't mesh correctly anymore.

    The solution is to either get a thicker base gasket or to trim down the coupler. Yes, I should be checking the squish and setting the cylinder height from that but dang, I figured it'd all go back together nice and easy if i didn't mod anything! I may as well have shaved a bit off the cylinder to bump compression if I'm going to have to be trimming parts anyway! (High compression pistons for this engine are "no longer available")

    So... a little more work before it can be buttoned up but at least I know where the problem is anyway. (And no, that isn't a crack near the bolt in front of the cylinder. The casting just gets rough through there)
    #52
  13. DesmoDog

    DesmoDog Desmo was my dog. RIP big guy.

    Joined:
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    After a date with a lathe and some carbide tipped cutting tools the tower shaft coupler is now about .6mm shorter. I wasn't sure how much clearance there needed to be between the collar and the clips, IIRC it's around .2-.3mm now (I didn't write the numbers down). In any case the head is torqued and everything works like a champ. Turns over easily and the gears mesh like they should.

    [​IMG]
    #53
  14. DesmoDog

    DesmoDog Desmo was my dog. RIP big guy.

    Joined:
    Jun 25, 2009
    Oddometer:
    993
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    Michigan, USA
    Progress!

    [​IMG]

    I didn't take any in progress pics but the engine is far enough along that I put it back in the frame. The various covers are just sitting in place for the pics.
    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    Along the way I did find one set back... This is the tabbed tach drive hanging off the head, showing the end of the cam. So, what's wrong with this picture?

    [​IMG]

    No? Here's a hint. In theory the tab on the tach drive fits into a slot in the cam. Here's the cam.
    [​IMG]

    No slot. D'oh! How could I screw around with this thing for this long and not notice that until now???

    Ok, so the tach is getting shelved until further notice. I have an extra top triple and I'm going to look into modding that to mount a modern electronic speedo/tach like I mentioned earlier. Or I'll just go with an old school speedo. Depending on what happens I may get another cam and mod it to work but for now it's press on regardless.

    Another idea that got nixed was the rearsets. I'm going with the stock footpegs, shifter and rear brake pedal for now. Future updates now include 1) rebuilding the seat in a different shape. 2) Modding a cam to work with the tach. 3) Building rearsets.
    #54
  15. Tbone

    Tbone off-ramp slayer

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    Looking good so far !
    #55
  16. DesmoDog

    DesmoDog Desmo was my dog. RIP big guy.

    Joined:
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    Thanks!


    Well, I'm probably going to regret this later... but I'm going to commit to having this done by the end of September. Barber is having a vintage even in October, the Ducati crowd is planning a lot of events to go along with it, and I think this bike needs to be running and in attendance. The plan as of about half an hour ago is to start putting a lot more time into this in the coming months. I should probably sleep on it before going public with my plan but what the heck. It shouldn't be THAT hard to do. I'm just a little spooked since I started working on this thing five+ years ago!

    I'll be at Barber either way, I reserved a room months ago. I'm not sure how I'll get this and two other bikes down there with my two place trailer but I've got time to figure that one out.

    So there it is. Barber or bust! :freaky
    #56
  17. Nixels

    Nixels Face fears - live life

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    :stupid :lurk

    :wave hollowrock :lol3

    Takin' this to Barber is a worthy goal - motivation's a good thing. :thumb

    :clap :clap :clap
    #57
  18. DesmoDog

    DesmoDog Desmo was my dog. RIP big guy.

    Joined:
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    Michigan, USA
    Hmm... a month later and things don't look much different. I have painted the swingarm, engine plates, and brake lever but they're not installed yet. I also just sent off some more parts to be chromed. I have no idea how long those will take though, I'm kicking myself for not getting them sent out sooner.

    Exciting picture this time. Since I bailed on the rearsets for now I have to chrome a non-modified kicks start lever. Also a shift lever and couple other things. Geez I hope they don't lose anything... I'm always afraid things are going to get lost when I send them out for any type of work.
    [​IMG]
    #58
  19. DesmoDog

    DesmoDog Desmo was my dog. RIP big guy.

    Joined:
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    Michigan, USA
    I put the chain on my 160 today. With the non-stock gearing I have, if I use an even number of links the axle adjusters are set to their maximum pull, as in the axle is as far rear-ward as they can pull it. The chain is ok for now but I have zero adjustment left to compensate for any stretch or wear. The problem is the slots in the swingarm aren't long enough to take another link out of the chain.

    So... tell me about half links? I've seen them but never used them. Apparently they install by pressing one pin in and using a standard master link on the other side? Is this a legitimate fix or is it a little clunky to use one?

    Where can I buy one for a 1/2 x 3/16 chain? I did a quick google search and came up with a lot of bicycle stuff but nothing that fit that pitch.

    In other news, I discovered the alternator nut on my 350 was in fine shape so I stole it for the 160. I also discovered that the mere suggestion of Acetone removed the white lettering on the wire I used to rewire it with. So that was nice. Oh, and putting the end of a stiff 5mm fuel line in boiling water for a couple seconds will soften it up enough to slip right on to a 6mm fitting. All in all it was a pretty good day for the 160, lots of little accomplishments.

    And then I discovered the two dents on the end of the new muffler, conveniently placed in the worst possible spots. Back of the muffler where no one would see? Nope. Bottom? Nope. They are on the upper part of the front side, right where you'll be looking if you're standing by the bike. Great.

    I can rotate the cone to hide them, but then the drain is in the wrong spot. So I can either show the damage or hide the damage but make it look like I have no clue how the muffler is supposed to go together. I think I'll go with visible dents... they're not THAT bad...
    #59
  20. DesmoDog

    DesmoDog Desmo was my dog. RIP big guy.

    Joined:
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    Oddometer:
    993
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    Michigan, USA
    Nevermind. The next day it was obvious the chain would work fine with one more link removed. Who knows what I was thinking earlier.

    Doesn't look like much progress but a lot of the small details are getting worked out. I've resigned myself to the fact the bike won't be DONE in time for Barber, but it will be in more of a "final mock up" condition meaning it will run but there will still be some issues to address, mainly cosmetic.

    Shiny parts. Thank you St Louis Plating!
    [​IMG]

    Getting there
    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]
    #60