2004 R1150RT Wideband O2 Sensor Project (and AF-XIED for BMW)

Discussion in 'Vendors' started by roger 04 rt, Dec 13, 2011.

  1. roger 04 rt

    roger 04 rt Long timer

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    Spence,
    This link may help you: https://www.mac-pac.org/wp-content/uploads/2014/09/R1100RT-Elec-Diagram-V2_2.pdf

    Pins 1 & 3 on the O2 sensor connector are both ground pins. The measurements you’re making on the blue and white/blue wires seem correct.

    That O2 sensor error you’re getting, “shorted to ground”, means that at some time while you’re riding, the Motronic was unable to add enough fuel to reach stable Closed Loop, so the O2 voltage/AF-XIED stays below 450 mV. It could point to a weak O2 sensor (see if you get it while riding at lower AF-XIED settings) or it can point to a leaking in-tank hose which doesn’t allow quite enough fuel at higher power settings. It almost never points to an actual short to ground. And it doesn’t have anything to do with the heater.
  2. Gimble88

    Gimble88 Hooligan

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    Thanks for the information and ideas Rodger.

    This bike is a 1996 R1100R. The O2 sensor is new, I installed it when I installed the AX-IED as the bike is old and I wanted to be sure I had a responsive lambda signal. In tank hoses where checked 3 months ago when the fuel filter was replaced. I have both the Clymers and Haynes schematics and did verify that 1&3 are connected to ground (though different grounds).

    I decided to clear the code by pulling the motronic fuse. I haven't seen it again.

    BUT... I seem to have some other problems that I didn't have before. Now if I measure the blue wire during a stabilized idle (bike all warmed up), I get a constant ~485mV. If I measure the blue/white wire I get some voltage initially in the low hundreds of mV then the values reduce, very slowly down to 115mV for the O2 sensor and the blue wire never changes . Also a minute or two after the AX-IED blinks it's setting number with the yellow LED, the green LED starts to blink steadily and no throttle movement will change that. It continues to blink steadily as long as the bike is running. So rapidly closing the throttle from 3000rpm cause the steady yellow (which should be on anyway because the output from the O2 sensor is below 400mV. I don't see any reference in my AX-IED instructions for a steadily flashing green LED, so my guess is that the flashing green LED might be the AX-IED reaction to a bogus lambda value.

    Next I unplugged the AX-IED from it's harness and put a jumper between the blue wire and the blue/white wire on the harness so that the output of the O2 sensor goes directly to the motronic (like stock). When I first start the warmed up bike the voltage from the sensor read ~435mV and it counts down about 2 mV/sec. The farthest I watched it go was ~130mV and still dropping. Pretty much the same behavior as it has with the AX-IED in the circuit.

    Next I took off the jumper so the O2 sensor is not connected to the motronic but still heated, engine running open loop. Voltage output of the O2 sensor 10-30mV.

    Just yesterday my AX-IED was putting out the expected voltages and light signals. Has my new O2 sensor died? Could I have done something to kill it?

    And the other error confusing error code I'm getting is: "1133 - no signal from hall sensor 2". This fault is seen while the engine is idling smoothly at 1100rpm even after giving the montronic fuse a "time out". Is it possible to have no signal from hall sensor 2 and have the bike run normally?


    Yikes. The water appears to be rising....

    The good news is that I did a successful Zero=250mV TPS adjustment last night before this O2 sensor calamity happened. SOMEone had definitely done a zero=zero "adjustment" bofore the bike came to me. As I got the bike, with the butterfly full closed the output of the TPS was 7mV and the throttle stop screws where adjusted to give exactly 340mV. The BBS's were almost closed at a 1100rpm idle and not very effective at controlling idle. After the procedure the BBS's are at about 2 1/2 turns open and effective. Idle is very smooth and off idle throttle response is very good. Thanks for doing all that research to come up with a good method for adjusting the TPS. You have enabled a lot of bikes to run much better.

    Spence
  3. Gimble88

    Gimble88 Hooligan

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    Sorry, never mind the "Hall Sensor 2 problem". I understand that this fault can show when the codes are read with the engine not running. But, only the #2 sensor code showed up never the #1, so it seemed more likely to be real. AND, I only got that code one time out of many times reading codes with just the ignition on and it stayed and stayed even though I tried to clear via the GS911 with the engine running. I seem to have poor luck clearing codes using the GS911 (three wire version). I seem to have to pull the motronic fuse to get codes to clear. ANYway I finally convinced both the motronic memory AND the GS911 that my hall sensors are both working.

    Apparently, I have a lot to learn about the motronic 2.2 codes and using the GS911. No surprise there.

    When I checked the output of the O2 sensor (Blue/White) wire again this morning, I saw pretty much the same thing. It actually started out above 500mV right at start and again slowly counted down. This time, though, the AX-IED did show a steady yellow LED when the O2 sensor output dropped below 400mV and I never got the blinking green LED. Since I'm still at setting 8, and the O2 sensor input to the AX-IED was eventually around 200mV and lower the AX-IED output to the motronic (Blue wire) was pretty constant ~230mV trying to get things more rich. Obviously, that results in a very rich condition.

    I am about to order a new lambda sensor since it seems to me that my present one is toast. Unless I'm missing something? Has anyone seen that failure mode: starting at some output at engine start and counting down a couple of mV/sec down to well under 100mV/sec without regard to mixture state?

    Question: I think the motronic is going to look at the steady 230mV output from the AX-IED, ignore it as bogus and just run open loop off the basic map. Is this true? And is it reasonable to ride the bike some in this condition?

    Thanks again,
    Spence
  4. roger 04 rt

    roger 04 rt Long timer

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    "Question: I think the motronic is going to look at the steady 230mV output from the AX-IED, ignore it as bogus and just run open loop off the basic map. Is this true? And is it reasonable to ride the bike some in this condition?"

    If it does see that input as a problem, you will likely get the shorted to ground error. Then it will ignore the O2.

    What coding plug do you now have installed?
  5. Gimble88

    Gimble88 Hooligan

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    Pink. 87 and 87a grounded. CAT installed and R1100R intake system.

    At one time yesterday, I saw code "2343 mixture setting at limit". That would seem to go along with what you said about 2344.
  6. Gimble88

    Gimble88 Hooligan

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    I thought that was an interesting idea since I did have both the "shorted to ground" error and the "mixture setting at limit" error yesterday.

    So I established a stabilized idle and watched the O2 sensor output go to very low values and the output of the AX-IED freeze at 230mV. Then I read the codes. 4444 "No fault stored".

    Edit: I disconnected the O2 sensor/AX-IED (open loop) and put my Booster Plug back in. That's a pretty happy combination....probably til I see my gas mileage. New O2 sensor on the way. Not quite as smooth as when the O2 sensor and AX-IED were working well but very good. In hind sight I think my O2 sensor has been slowly deteriorating for a few weeks.
  7. Gimble88

    Gimble88 Hooligan

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    Rodger,

    My new O2 sensor has arrive and I'm about to install it and wire my AX-IED into it the sensor harness. Is there any reason why I couldn't source the 12V for the AX-IED from some other source than the O2 sensor heater? Since my bike is an R1100R, the heater only gets power when the fuel pump is running. So it runs for 2 secs or so when the ignition powers on, then shuts off until the motor is started. So powering the AX-IED from somewhere else (like the motronic fuse) would allow it to stay on after ignition power up and I would have to mess with one less wire in the O2 harness.

    Any down side that you can see?

    Thanks,
    Spence
  8. roger 04 rt

    roger 04 rt Long timer

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    Spence,
    Another source of switched 12V should be fine. You could get a pair of two pin connectors and pick up power at the fuel injector which is what other fueling solutions have done but that’s the same source as the lambda heater.
  9. Frank smith

    Frank smith R1200GSA, WR250R, R80RT Supporter

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    Roger,

    No more errors. I discovered a loose positive battery cable connection when I was replacing my battery. It was causing all kinds of havoc. I think I’m much better now.
  10. Gimble88

    Gimble88 Hooligan

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    Well my newly installed O2 sensor has lasted 9 days. I had some work to do on the bike so the seat was off. When I fired it up to test the work I noticed that AX-IED started blinking green a few seconds after the yellow lights gave the setting number. This is what I saw before when my O2 sensor stopped working. I measured the blue/white (O2 sensor output) at - 35mV (this is referenced to the neg batt terminal and not the voltage seen between the black and grey wires from the O2 sensor. That voltage is also just a few mV but not neg.).

    So it looks like another O2 sensor has died. These are Bosch units from good motorcycle vendors. This last one even had the R1100R connector on it. They are torqued to spec and wired using the connectors supplied with a universal (without connector) Bosch O2 sensor.

    The bike ran great for 9 days and several times I checked to be sure the O2 sensor/AX-IED was working. Today, I changed the coil and spark plug wires and replaced some tank mounting hardware. And saw the green blink of O2 sensor death.

    So how am I killing O2 sensors?
  11. LAFS

    LAFS Long timer

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    I was always told to NEVER solder or break a solid wire on a O2 sensor. That said I have seen it done and work with no issues.

    How are you doing the splice? As you are aware you are dealing with a very sensitive and minute amount of voltages so solder type is real important. Protecting that spice is another area that may need looked at.

    I would think you can find a O2 with the correct end, right?

    Other then that I would look for over/under voltage issue somewhere, bad ground?

    So if you switch it to the other side it is bad there also?

    I mean 9 days and it goes is frustrating I am sure.

    Have you taken the af-xied out of the loop?

    I know if you spring for another O2 sensor I would try to find one that is a match plug wise, take the af-xeid out of the loop, have my charging system checked for output, and the battery tested even if new.

    A brown out or low voltage is as bad or worse then a spike in voltage so I would be looking for that myself.

    Hope it gets worked out for you.
  12. Gimble88

    Gimble88 Hooligan

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    Thanks for the reply Lee.

    With the R1100R you have to splice in the AX-IED. Nightrider hasn't been able to source the required connectors to make it plug and play for the R1100x bikes. When I first got the AX-IED, I replaced the O2 sensor as it was 22 years old and 35,000mi and I just wanted to be confident I had a good responding O2 sensor. It was a "universal" type and came from Bosch with a splicing kit to use the old connector. So what I'm using is what Bosch supplies. Soldering is a bad idea with O2 sensor wires. I had initially soldered mine in but was advised to splice instead so I did. That sensor failed after a few weeks.

    I bought an exact replacement Bosch which had the correct connector for my bike this time. But I still had to splice in the AX-IED. With the harness on the AX-IED I can measure both the output from the O2 sensor and the signal that the AX-IED sends to the motronic after processing.

    Since this is an R1100R there is only one O2 sensor on the bike, so no switching.

    Yes I have unplugged the AX-IED from it's harness. This means the O2 sensor is connected to nothing. I can measure it's output. Just a few mV. And I can temporarily connect the O2 sensor to the motronic and still monitor the output. No change.

    My battery is good. Grounds are good and clean. The bike runs very smoothly and strongly with the O2 sensor and AX-IED working together. The ABS system is very persnickety about voltage and is working fine. It doesn't run too bad with O2 failure. But not like it should.

    The interwebs say that contamination is a common cause of early O2 failure. The bike has 39000mi on it and doesn't use but a tiny amount of oil even though I ride fairly aggressively with lots of twisties and higher rpms. So I think oil contamination can be ruled out.

    The last one failed during a period when I was using techron. I haven't used any additive since I replaced that O2 sensor and have only used Chevron supreme since it's convenient to my house. So I'm having a hard time figuring out where any contamination could come from.

    Spence
  13. LAFS

    LAFS Long timer

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    I would think if you are fouling a O2 with oil you would see it, or feel residue at the top of the threads or in the pipe. How did the O2 look? Nice and white/dry? There are things like gasket cleaners and other chemicals that will foul a O2, I just am not sure or up on that as I never had a O2 issue I was aware of.

    I recently saw something about a AX-IED unit that had failed. I had thought they were completely sealed in epoxy but saw in the failed pictures that is not the case. Still it has been the ONLY one I have ever seen like that.

    50 odd years ago at 12 or so and was having issues with a mini bike. I asked my Dad and he said what was the last thing you did to it? I had messed with the fuel line and never got it on right, it had a kink.

    At 62 I still go to the last thing done if I have a issue that is not obvious.

    Just saying, if you are sure of your voltage output meaning your alternator, and sure your battery is good, it only leaves what?

    Worst case is the ECU? Wiring?

    You should buy a stock O2 sensor, with a stock plug, leave the AX-IED OUT of the loop, and I mean power and ground also, and proof it out one way or another. It could be a voltage issue from the AX-IED that erodes something in the O2 sensor over time or cycle?

    You have GS-911 access? Do you know if you have thrown any codes?

    Really I see no other way to diagnose a bike blowing two O2 sensors but to put it back to stock.

    I would clear EVERYTHING I could with a GS-911. I have no clue what it does on a older bike but you can check O2 with it on LC bikes. I would also clear all the fuel tables. Reset the throttle position. Maybe view running voltage in the GS-911 or use the MotoScan App and it's OBD II reader. I have both, but reach for the GS-911 at home because I can, I carry the dongle and have the App on my cell phone on the road.

    I am just trying to spitball and just saying what I would do.

    As far as additives I have used Yamaha Ring Free which is a very concentrated Tectron fuel system cleaner and at first Sta-Bil Marine, and later StarTron in every car and bike since the 07 LT.

    That includes a 10 FJR 1300, 15 RT, and 17.5 GS. And on all of those I use a PC V with AutoTune and use DynoJet/ Bosch wide band O2's with no issues. Even going back to my 05 Road Glide I used at first a PC V and then after a build a Daytona Twin Tech.
  14. roger 04 rt

    roger 04 rt Long timer

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    Given that it’s rare for an O2 sensor to fail, I’d disconnect the AF-XIED at the white connector and jumper the blue lead to blue/white. Then I’d also make sure that the O2 heater is being powered and grounded. Then I’d also make sure that all connector pins for the 4-pin connector between the O2 sensor and Motronic are clean and making good contact.
    LAFS likes this.
  15. roger 04 rt

    roger 04 rt Long timer

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    The other thought is that somehow +12V is getting connected to the blue/white wire which connects to O2+ on the O2 sensor. That might damage it.
  16. Gimble88

    Gimble88 Hooligan

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    Thanks Rodger.

    I am absolutely certain that 12V was never delivered to the gray or black wires. I'll check the connections to the motronic but I have looked at the connector pins many times and they are clean and bright. I'll have a good look at the whole harness.

    The O2 sensor/AX-IED was working perfectly on Thursday and no wiring was changed between then and yesterday. This is from checking the voltages on the blue wire and the blue/white wire.

    I'm leaning toward contamination now. Last night I looked at the O2 sensor that failed before this one. It was black and a little sooty, though not horribly. I put it in a vice and heated it while monitoring the gray and black wires with a DMM. It did put out 100 to ~800mV and went to zero within a second after removing the heat. The thin layer of soot burned off pretty quickly as I applied the heat - I don't know if the soot was causing it's output to fail but it seems like a good place to start. Before I removed this sensor, I did run the bike open loop with a Booster Plug while I was waiting for my replacement O2 sensor. So I don't know if it was sooted when it stopped responding or got sooted after when I was running open loop. I did reset the motronic before riding it open loop after the failure.

    When I changed out that sensor, I was focused on getting the bike running properly again so I put off testing it. The question is - did I have a reversible failure due to contamination? Is it possible the bike could run so rich on setting 8 that the sensor was contaminated? The weather here is around 30°F and I did idle the bike for a few minutes to check (but not adjust) throttle balance. So did a combination of cold and extended idle (5 or fewer minutes) cause a rich enough mixture to contaminate the sensor?

    From having two recent sensor failures, I *think* that I can tell when the O2 sensor/AX-IED is working well and when it's not. It seems pretty obvious, of course butts are subjective and I don't have measurements to confirm that the motronic was doing what it's supposed to do. So it measured correctly (voltages on blue and blue/white wire) on Thursday and ran like it was working. Since the blue wire was dithering from 200mV to 800mV and the blue/white wire showed the O2 sensor putting out a very steady ~850mV I guess the motronic was doing what the AX-IED commanded it to do.

    The question in my mind - is there something causing to the O2 sensor to read too lean and therefore the whole system is dumping fuel into the engine to overcome the (inaccurate) lean condition? I'm fairly certain of having no intake leaks it's harder to be sure of no exhaust leaks but pipes look in good condition and joints are tight. I have the stock exhaust and I just changed to R1200 injectors from Tills, so no leaking or crappy spray patterns from them . Nice improvement. Bike runs beautifully if I can just get the O2 sensor problem solved.

    In both my recent O2 failures, the output from the sensor seems to degrade slowly over time once it starts. From my measurements, as the O2 sensor starts responding poorly that the AX-IED puts out a steady ~420mV. I think this causes the motronic to accept that the map it's using at the moment is correct, no? Could this cause an severely rich mixture to further contaminate the O2 sensor? Normally, with everything working I don't seem to have a excessively rich idle.

    Today, I plan to swap the sensor in the bike for the old one I just tested. I'll be running it with the AX-IED at a pretty lean setting setting to avoid overly rich conditions. I need to have, at least, the AX-IED harness wired in so I can monitor the output of the sensor. That only leaves voltage readings. If it works, I believe I will have confirmed contamination.

    Spence
  17. Gimble88

    Gimble88 Hooligan

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    So I can be more clear I will number my O2 sensors:

    1) installed Dec. 30 when I installed the AX-IED
    2) installed when #1 stopped responding around Jan 30th

    So I tested #1 last night and found it was responsive. It's possible that I cleared some contamination when applying heat.

    Today I wired #1's white wires to the white wires coming from the motronic using the same connectors that I use when installing the AX-IED/O2 sensor. This #1 senor was not installed in the exhaust nor were the grey and black wires connected. I just wanted to verify that it would heat up. It did heat up. So the white wires are conducting 12V to the O2 sensor.

    Next remove #2 from the exhaust and install #1 to see if it operates properly.
  18. LAFS

    LAFS Long timer

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    Does not matter what number you assign your O2's.

    As you now suspect you fouled the O2 sensor(s).

    So what has fouled them?

    It has to be oil or fuel, right?

    You notice any oil loss?

    I keep beating a dead horse here but take the AF-XIED out of the equation.

    Rodger has told you to take it out of the loop.

    Why do you not want to isolate the AF-XIED from the bike until you get it sorted out?

    Again a stock O2, reset fuel tables if you can with a battery disconnect, go ride a few weeks/tanks through it and see if you have a O2 failure.

    If all is well hook the AF-XIED back up and see what goes on from there.

    Rodger may correct me, but I think even maxed out, a correctly running AF-XIED would not put enough fuel out to drown a proper running O2 sensor.

    And if it was that rich you should have smelt it I would think.

    Did you mention new injectors? Put the old back in?

    However your bike, you diagnose and work on your bike how it suits you, after all it is your bike:-)

    Hope you get it figured out. I am out on this topic but will watch for the outcome.
  19. roger 04 rt

    roger 04 rt Long timer

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    The contaminants that are often responsible for damaging O2 sensors are silicone and lead. I've run my sensors very rich, they turn black and still seem to work fine, even after years. I wouldn't think it was contamination from rich fueling.

    Is it possible that the O2 sensor heater (the two white wires) are not powering the sensor heater. That could be a problem in that the sensor needs to be hot to function correctly. I would try to find a way to measure the current flowing in one of the white wires while the bike is running. If that's too difficult, measure the resistance of the O2 heater (less than 10 ohms) with the sensor unplugged and then measure the voltage at the white wires while the bike is running. It should always be 12 V.

    Edit: I see that you checked the heaters. I think your idea of trying a lower AF-XIED setting is good.
  20. Gimble88

    Gimble88 Hooligan

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    Thanks Rodger, I guess I can only keep gathering data and isolating the problem.

    Lee, I HAVE taken theAX-IED out of the circuit. Many times. I measured the voltage from the O2 sensor installed in the bike and heated by the bike. O2 sensor #2 (in the bike) is non-responsive.

    Here's the quote from above:
    "Yes I have unplugged the AX-IED from it's harness. This means the O2 sensor is connected to nothing. I can measure it's output. Just a few mV. And I can temporarily connect the O2 sensor to the motronic and still monitor the output. No change."

    I also, with the AX-IED unplugged from it's harness jumpered the plug so that the O2 sensor connects directly to the motronic with just as it would as stock. No meaningful output from the O2 sensor. The AX-IED is a red herring. It doesn't matter whether it's in circuit or not if the O2 sensor doesn't respond with any meaningful voltage. The AX-IED is acting normally with regard to it's power up sequence and it detects that the voltage from the O2 sensor is bogus by blinking it's green light. I only get a blinking green light when the sensor is not responding.

    There IS the question as to whether the AX-IED could kill the O2 sensor. Well, I don't see it. I think it didn't kill O2 #1 because it works on a bench test. We shall see if it works in the bike.

    I took that sensor (#2) out of the bike and bench tested it. It does put out some voltage but is very slow to respond and definitely doesn't drop to zero as it should with the heat off. So whatever is wrong with it, it didn't clean up when heated.

    I'm not putting the old injectors back in. The new ones were flow and pattern tested and matched within less than 0.5% and the bike ran great with them in -before the O2 sensor died. The old ones were clearly not (no longer) very well matched.

    As I said, the bike uses a small amount of oil, most people wouldn't really notice. Maybe a few ounces in 1000mi. of twisties and 4k to 5k rpm. So I don't think it's oil.

    I agree it seem unlikely that the AX-IED could make things so rich that they fouled the O2 sensor.

    ANYway, I out to install O2sensor #1. We'll see if it works.