2004 R1150RT Wideband O2 Sensor Project (and AF-XIED for BMW)

Discussion in 'Vendors' started by roger 04 rt, Dec 13, 2011.

  1. vpannepacker

    vpannepacker 1301cc

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    Thanks Roger.

    At idle I'm hearing the engine and seeing the tach jump about every 10 seconds, minor. Attempting to hold an even RPM in any gear anywhere up through 4K demonstrates hunting rather than steadystate engine speed. I find this disconcerting as well as less than ideal, especially when setting up for and coordinating turns. I bought the bike second hand with 25Kmi on it and these symptoms have been there since I took possession. In the meantime I've blueprinted the valve clearances and timing, changed spark plugs, and used my GS-911 to baseline all fuel-related adaptations (idle, etc.) in an attempt to clear this up, sadly with no change in behavior.

    I believe I read a reference of yours a number of pages up in the "thermometer (Booster Plug) / thermostat (AF-XIED)" analogy that these devices compliment each other. Was this only for prior year model bikes? Am I correctly interpreting your advice to yank the BP as being due to the modern BMSK adaption over time? My understanding was that with the BP onboard the O2 sensors connections were to be retained (and still are). Now that I plan on adding the AF-XIED, the O2 sensors will in fact still be retained. Please let me know why the BP is rendered useless if not complimentary to the lambda shifters.

    As always, much appreciated!
  2. roger 04 rt

    roger 04 rt Long timer

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    It's somewhere in the hundreds of pages of this thread, but here is a simple description:

    When you install just the boosterplug, it changes the temperature signal sent from the intake manifold to the ECU (Motronic or BMSX). Momentarily, that results in the ECU seeing a cooler air temperature and adding about 6% fuel. However, moments after that, the ECU is reading the O2 sensor, sees that the mixture is too rich and within seconds reduces the fueling to exactly where it had been before the addition of the BoosterPlug (let's not just pick on them, every IAT shifter has this problem). And worse, after enough riding, all the long term trims have fully adjust to the IAT temperature shift and there is no fueling difference anywhere--the long term trims are all set to about 0.94, which is 6% less than 1.00. So the simple math is that the BoosterPlug says to add 6% to fueling and the Long Term Trims say to remove 6% fueling and you end up back at stock fueling.

    When you install an AF-XIED set to (for instance) 6% rich, the ECU is initially sent a signal that says that the mixture is too lean. Moments later, it starts adding fuel until it sees a "mixture on target" signal from the O2/afxied pair. After enough riding, all the long term trims have reached a value of 1.06. Since there is no other signal saying otherwise, the fueling ends up 6% richer and you ride happier because gasoline engines all produce more torque when 6% richer than where are bikes are set to run.

    If you add a BP and AF-XIED it goes like this: the boosterplug says to add 6% fuel and if you have the AF-XIED set to exactly 6% more fuel, the ECU does no adaptation and the trims stay at 1.00 (nominally) and you get 6% more fuel. But this is an impractical case since the BP and AF-XIED are rarely at exactly the same value. For the $150 price of the BoosterPlug, all you might get in the case, is a slightly shorter time for the long term trims to reach their final value. In addition to the cost, you have doubled the number of connections to the IAT sensor-reducing reliability. I ran this way for a while but then realized it was a bad tradeoff and permanently removed my BP.
  3. LAFS

    LAFS Long timer

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    Dyno Jet no longer disconnects the 02 sensors. They have you tune 4500 RPM up.

    With AutoTune and it's Wide Band 02 sensors you tune it any way you would like. Or put it on a dyno and have it tuned correctly with no guessing or wondering what setting is what AFR. Without a dyno you set AFR to Throttle Position and then auto tune will dial in that exact AFR at that RPM and that Throttle Position. It is not hard to use IMHO but I have been using one for 14 years now.

    I did try the AF-XIED and it is a great plug and play item. I wanted a bit more and was willing to pay for it. That is the issue if you want to spend the money to buy and dyno a PC V. The dyno is not necessary but will put you bike spot on for fueling. However you can get there on a base map and you can adjust that without a dyno. Or the extra money to have Auto Tune that is always making fine adjustment to fueling.

    I am pretty sure until someone gets the flash of the BMSK down and is a legitimate company the 1250 is going to be untouchable no matter what. And yes on these threads some geek always shows up and says I can read the code and see the maps and all that stuff. Well I have seen NO ONE say they flashed and dyno a difference from flashing the BMSK.

    You have two choices the AF of the PC V.

    And on the 1250 with it's after the cat 02 sensor it is going to be very interesting in seeing what can be done as somehow that 3rd cat is going to need fooled or defeated.

    Now on our (my) cars tune I use a defowler on the rear 02, this brings the sensor out of the stream a bit to fool the reading, not sure if that can work on our bikes?

    Most dont worry and are happy with their bikes fueling. With headers and a Remus exhaust the PC V works great on my GS, and I am pleased just as on the RT, and the FJR 1300 that I have run the PC V on.
  4. roger 04 rt

    roger 04 rt Long timer

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    That's an interesting change. That means that none of the Closed Loop area (about 70% of the map on an RTW) can be tuned, and in my experience, that's where most of the benefit for normal riding improvement is. This was probably driven by government regulations.

    You are clearly very good at working with the PCV. And I can see that it brings benefits to those who want to put in the time to learn it and how to make fueling decisions. In order to make it work on a Dyno at a steady RPM, the Dyno has to have a load cell and the rider has to pay for a good block of time to try many RPMs and Throttle Positions.

    Autotune is interesting. There are two things I'm not crazy about. The first is that removing the stock O2s puts the BMSX and its convergence routines in the dark and no longer fully operating--that may or not bother anyone else. The second thing is that I've seen Autotune create some unusually large corrections that don't intuitively seem right. One who buys autotune should be prepared to keep an eye on that.

    ...

    Because the BMSX on the R1250 uses Wideband O2 sensors, it is entirely possible to alter the map and create a very good tune. Chris at CJS Racing claims to have done that and I'm keeping an eye on it. He has explained exactly what he does and why it works. Bren Tuning also claims to have an R1250 map I believe. With any remap, be prepared to VERIFY!

    I see a couple ways to shift the Wideband O2 but I think it will be a while before someone (Nightrider?) gets a prototype ready.

    ...

    The rear O2 sensor really adds to the complexity of adding fuel. At the moment the BMW software doesn't seem to do much with it. But watch out, they will surely "update" the software, breaking attempts to hack the fueling.
    LAFS likes this.
  5. vpannepacker

    vpannepacker 1301cc

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    Beauty, looking forward to the swap this weekend. AF-XIED in, trials, likely BP out... in that sequence. Explanation very helpful, Sir. Having been around this block a few times, your experience and generous bits and bytes of wisdom are appreciated by all.

    Cheers!

    Vince
  6. LAFS

    LAFS Long timer

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    I would like to see something that comes with a file and a flash device. I have it on my car in a KTuner. If I want to go back to 87 from 93 octane I just flash it back to stock, and when I want performance I flash it to the E-Tune with 93 octane.

    That is what is needed on these bikes. If you need an update at service time at the dealers to the BMSK that you sent off and waited on, now needs to go off again for a re flash and you need to wait again.

    I suspect the 3rd 02 is Euro 5 and when that happens bikes will get flashed and whatever Euro 5 entails will be on all the bikes Euro 5 ready. I would think it will happen to anyone who takes their bike in for service. BMW will order all bikes in for service be flashed to Euro 5. It does not affect 98% of the people who ride so it wont be an issue but anyone bending fuel tables or code will need to get re flashed to get that bent code back. A flash device cant be that bad as KTuner, HonData and many others been flashing car ECU's and the cost is pretty cheap for a hand held flash unit and a performance fuel map. The cost goes up when you do an E-Tune and I logged 21 full WOT pulls until Turbo Gixxer said he could do no more on my car. Now that was fueling and timing and when VTech kicks in and how hard. I am very happy with the device on my car.

    I am very happy with my PC V. I have seen a huge value in AutoTune and ignored it and waited to the next ride to see if it wanted the same and it did not. Thing is AutoTune will not correct it past 5% unless you tell it to when in the software with a computer so you can make decisions on what you think may be an accurate change.

    Since I believe that you need to be able to make your bike stock if you have problems on the road I carry the two OEM O2 sensors. I can pull the wide bands out, connect the injectors to the bikes leads instead of the PC V, and my bike is running stock. Yes a bit of a pain to do but I can do it in a 1/2 hour or so if I have a fail on the road I can take the PC V out of the loop for a dealer to diagnose if needed.

    That is why I like a flash unit, just flash it back to the stock map and life is good.

    I am always gonna want to fuel my bike as they suck at small throttle openings. My preference is a flash, but I run the PC V because I am invested in it and it works for me. As I say I would love a flash and the handheld to do it. I dont want to send my BMSK off to anyone.

    IMHO the AF-XIED is the best and least hassle to get fuel into a bike.

    However we are now onto 1250's and I fear they are for sure locking the fueling down tighter and tighter and a flash is going to be the ONLY way to fuel them.
  7. roger 04 rt

    roger 04 rt Long timer

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    I’m pretty sure I know two ways to shift the Wideband O2 sensor. In order to be positive I’d need either detailed specs on the Wideband O2 (I haven’t had time to find them—not easy) or using a different method, a prototype from Nightrider (they may be working on it). It can be done.

    I also believe that there will be a safe, reliable ECU tune but I don’t have a 1250 so can’t verify anyone’s. If there’s a used 1250 I can swap for my used RTW, I may pull the trigger.
  8. LAFS

    LAFS Long timer

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    I believe you can shift the AFR on wide band 02. I mean it is where you started all this.

    My question is do you think you can defeat the 3rd 02 when it becomes really involved in the fueling maps? As stated it does very little at this point but NMW did not go to the expense to cut a 3rd bung into the exhaust system, and spend the money on a 3rd 02 sensor downstream of the cat for the environment. That is Euro 5 and no one knows how far that is going to go.

    Again I am rooting for the AF-XIED or a ECU flash as to me a direct flash is cleaner. Again on that the AF-XIED is better IMHO as it i pretty easy to reverse. And by that I mean where you may have a issue and need to be stock to diagnose it. The AF hands down is the one to have. Unless the ECU comes with a flash device as most good car tuners come with for just that reason, to be able to go stock with a simple flash.
  9. roger 04 rt

    roger 04 rt Long timer

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    The third O2 will be tricky because they could test lean, rich, stoic, heater impedance, etc. Still, even that can be figured. And with an AF-XIED-type approach, you can take it with you, take it off, and as needed let BMW update your SW.

    I like the flash but only if the flasher keeps it simple and doesn’t muck up too much. For example, all I’d do for a standard flash is replace all the lambda = 1 cells with lambda = 0.92 or 0.93. Then delete those cells in the rear O2 check. That simple change would add riding performance but wouldn’t risk anything else.