2004 R1150RT Wideband O2 Sensor Project (and AF-XIED for BMW)

Discussion in 'Vendors' started by roger 04 rt, Dec 13, 2011.

  1. roger 04 rt

    roger 04 rt Long timer

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    You guys ... have me laughing. It's like we have a comedy routine going. I see where I went wrong, let me fix things up a bit. Do follow the link to the explanation if you want the full story. RB

    It (the BMSK computer) uses the Oxygen Sensor and sees that there's too little oxygen in the exhaust, indicating a too rich mixture. A process of learning (managed by the BMSK and called Mixture Adaptation) creates correction factors which takes a tank or two of fuel to fully remove the BoosterPlug effect. Mixture Adaptation is documented by Bosch and BMW, but is not well explained or understood. If you'd like to read about the measurements and detail of how mixture adaptation works, start at post #358: Mixture Adaptation Measurements.
  2. roger 04 rt

    roger 04 rt Long timer

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    The dealer attaches their computer to your bike and sends a command to your BMSK telling it to erase its Mixture Adaptations (mentioned above). Then it starts learning over again with a clean slate. It's something they might try if they thought you'd put a BoosterPlug on and then removed it.
  3. pklop

    pklop Motorcycle addict

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    I didn't know exactly what the af-xied did for me because i had gotten both new software from bmw and the bmw-af-xied at almost the same time. I therefor deinstalled the af-xied. While riding for a while i got a good feeling about what was changed.

    The surging i sometimes experienced was stil gone. The dip in perceived power between 4500 ... 5500 rpm was also not so bad (i have a early 2013 GS LC bike). The throttle response (at higher then 2200 rpm) felt still good (just a little bit less then with the af-xied). So these things i attribute to the updated fuel mapping from bmw. But boy was there a bad change in low rpm smoothness (without the af-xied)!

    I took me by suprise when the bike started shaking, stuttering and got realy bad final-drive reactions when i dropped below 1800 rpm in second gear through some sharp very low speed turns in the city-streets. It seems that i already had gotten used to the possibility of letting those rpms drop that far and now without the af-xied i couldn't.

    I re-installed the af-xied. Since then i have driven some 500 hundred miles. People i can tell you: for low rpm power & smoothness this thing rocks on the GS LC! Since i do a decent amount of offroad with this bike this improvement in low rpm smoothness is the best improvement i could wish for.

    No more stalling or working the clutch a lot. Now the bike pulls like a GS should - that's like a tractor. :clap
    I did find this a weak spot with the new engine (the driveability below 2000 rpm) but not anymore. To illustrate this; I did a test riding in second gear without my hand on the gas driving upon a small hill (embankment besides a river). So while idling around (1200 rpm) the bike pulled without hesitation and without almost stalling upon that hill, it just kept on pulling! To me this kind of behavior is all the reason i need to keep the af-xied. It was not cheap (with EU taxes) but worth it.
    I wanted to let you guys know about these experiences.

    Regards
  4. gr8grins

    gr8grins Been here awhile

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    I have 2 totally separate questions about the AFXIED devices:

    1. Have they been tested on the new GS/GSA wet heads? (I'm thinking of getting one and if they too have the lean characteristics of my cam head I'd like to be able to use them on the new bike also).

    2. After a short 50 mile jaunt with the AFXIED installed, I am AMAZED! It is adapting much more quickly than I expected. The only place it seems to still give me the yellow light is when idling and at very low throttle angles.
    Do I need to spend some time just putting around the neighborhood at idle and on/off very low throttle angles to help the BMSK learn its new AFR in that part of the fuel map? Or will it automatically populate those cells over time from normal riding?

    Again, I am amazed at how fast and what a huge difference the AFXIED makes. I really appreciate all the documentation and thoroughness of the research that went into making these. Very nicely done, gentlemen. I also really appreciate the thoughtful and clear answers that I've gotten from Roger, Terry, and HW.

    Oh, and one more thing - It's really classy that you don't badmouth other people's devices (IATs, fuel map controllers, etc). You guys really roll above crowd and call it like it is without resorting to punches. That's cool.

    Thank you,
    grins
  5. roger 04 rt

    roger 04 rt Long timer

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    A couple questions... (damn this thing works!)

    1) A report on the GSW was just posted in the Vendor thread, check it out.

    2) Don't worry too much about the green and yellow lights. They are interesting but don't tell the whole story. Because they relate to O2 sensor voltage, which will sometimes be below 450 mV during Closed Loop, even on setting 7 or 8, the yellow light will flicker on.

    On the second part of your question, the BMSK will slowly and thoroughly learn all its LCFs and then create adaptive values over time. The device starts bring improvement so quickly because most riding is done below 25 degrees throttle and the BMSK quickly creates LCFs below that setting. That means almost anywhere in the cruising range you see benefits in minutes.

    The more steady rpms and throttle angles you ride, the faster it learns.
  6. eddyturn

    eddyturn Eternal Wannabe Supporter

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    I guess I am going to have to get one for my 800GS --- just gotta help and hope I can find someone to help.
  7. diabolik37

    diabolik37 Deadly Gubba

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    I really want to believe this, but I have four problems with it. I'm not try to start an argument, but could you please tell me why then:

    1) The backfire is completely gone...

    2) Can let the clutch gently go without accelerating and engine will NOT stall...

    3) Engine brake has decreased

    And finally, why did BMW put a temperature sensor in the air box in the first place, if is not need it?

    I know what you are saying about the BMSK, but could you please explain then why the above is still happening 16 months after the plug has been installed? How many years does the BMSK need to learn that the temperature sensor is wrong and adjust himself?

    Cheers
  8. ebrabaek

    ebrabaek Long timer

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    Hopple down south, and I'l help ya install it. Durango- El Paso 7 hrs.....:D:freaky
  9. BronsonRock

    BronsonRock Banned

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    Consult the pictures in this thread. I can't imagine anyone couldn't do it themselves with some patience and basic tools.
  10. roger 04 rt

    roger 04 rt Long timer

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    No problem about your questions. Debate is good. Also, Mixture and Spark adaptation technology is not well explained and a bit hard to understand.

    I hope you had a chance to read through the detailed measurements I presented in the link on Mixture Adaptation a couple posts back. It shows conclusively what happens when you modify the air temperature sensor. It's up to you whether you accept the measurements and explanation or not. There have been no measurements, by any maker of IAT shifter, that show an effect.

    I can't explain why you believe that the BoosterPlug affected items 1, 2 and 3 above but I will say that even BoosterPlug doesn't claim that an IAT shift will effect those items. For example, there is no mechanism by which shifting IAT can effect engine braking.

    I can explain why BMW has the many sensors, including IAT. The reason is, the BMSK needs a starting point to begin the fueling process. The amount of air in the cylinder is a function of the TPS sensor, rpm, barometric pressure and air temperature. The ideal situation is that all these sensors are perfect and that the Short Term and Long Term adaptive values are small. However if you introduce a big error anywhere into the system, the BMSK learns that the fueling is wrong and makes corrections. The BMSK doesn't know which sensor is wrong, it just knows that it has to adjust the short and long term Adaptives to get it to be correct.

    A note of caution: because your BMSK has adapted to the BoosterPlug, if you remove it, your bike will run worse for a while. It will be a little lean until it relearns things. The best thing to so if you remove it is to use a GS-911 to reset the adaptive values. Then it will take half a tank of fuel or so of normal riding at many steady speeds and gears to relearn things.
  11. spartanman

    spartanman regret minimizer

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    Roger, do you happen to know the pin out designation for the 2.4 controller? I have a wiring diagram but it doesn't call out the pins. I don't want to peel back the insulation if I don't have to.

    Thanks.
  12. roger 04 rt

    roger 04 rt Long timer

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    The pins for spark are different between single and dual MA 2.4. Here's a good link: http://www.mac-pac.org/tech/electrical-diagrams/.

    What're you up to?
  13. spartanman

    spartanman regret minimizer

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    Thank you! The plan is to turbocharge my '02 GSA: http://www.advrider.com/forums/showthread.php?t=959597

    First thought was to install a piggyback controller and injectors to add fuel under boost. I'm still not fully convinced this is a bad idea. The second option, which is looking more likely, is ditch the Motronic and run a Microsquirt with larger injectors and a MAP sensor.
  14. diabolik37

    diabolik37 Deadly Gubba

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    I'm afraid but this is not what I was hoping for. My question is very simple and the fact is, you could Not answer it.

    NO Booster Plug

    1) The bike does backfire a lot.

    2) It cannot go forward unless I add a bit of gas.

    3) I have plenty of Engine brake.

    With Booster Plug ON

    1) Backfire is completely gone

    2) I can gently let the clutch engage and the bike does move forward without me adding any gas.

    3) The engine brake is much lower.

    That's WHAT IT IS, not what I think. It is a fact. Not my opinion. So lets move on.

    I also notice that you have miss the part where I asked you how long does the BMSK take to supposedly "adjust" itself...hmmm

    You have also said that you can't explain why. I take that's the truth. I guess to answer my question, I'll need to find someone that actually does know how the BMSK works with out all the guess work...

    Thanks anyway..
  15. roger 04 rt

    roger 04 rt Long timer

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    Did you read the explanation of how Mixture Adaptation works? (Link below again.)That answers your question about how long. Roughly though: the LCFs happen within seconds of riding in each cell of the fuel map but the Adaptation Values can take a few tanks of fuel depending on your riding style.

    I answered as I did because there isn't a mechanism by which a change in air temperature affects your number 3, the engine braking function (Overrun Fuel Cutoff). Also on question 2 about letting out the clutch, the bike at idle is closed loop, so there too the BoosterPlug has no effect. Your question 1, does that happen on deceleration?

    If you'd like to read about the measurements and detail of how mixture adaptation works, start at post #358: Mixture Adaptation Measurements.

    Also about midway through the same linked thread are some detailed descriptions of how the BMSK works. And recently I posted up some dyno testing info on the R1200GS. There's lots of good stuff on how the R1200 and BMSK work. If you do the reading I think you'll see that I understand how the BMSK works. How much I know about the BMSK isn't really your question.

    Do you have any non-stock equipment on your bike? (Exhaust, intake, fuel controller, etc?) are your O2 sensors connected and working?
    RB
  16. Smoke Eater 3

    Smoke Eater 3 Long timer Supporter

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    Does anyone have any CO emission data from a gas meter to see how effective the booster plug is?
  17. roger 04 rt

    roger 04 rt Long timer

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    I run an oxygen meter, an Innovate Motorsports LC-1. There is a correlation with CO. Anyway, you can't see any difference at all after half a tank or so of fuel.

    I own a BoosterPlug and use it sometimes in combination with my LC-1 set on 13.8:1. In that configuration or with an AF-XIED in place of an LC-1, the BoosterPlug speeds the process of adaptation to the final value set by the LC-1 or AF-XIED. My CO then reads about 2%.

    Here's a good AFR to CO table. AFR vs CO.
  18. diabolik37

    diabolik37 Deadly Gubba

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    Mate, that link just point to another of your post. I thought it would have point to a Bosch or BMW gazetted bulletin. Just because you write and believe something it doesn't make right or true. And I don't claim that this or that products do work either. All I'm saying is that I have customers, that have the Booster plug installed and that it has changed their bike behavior, and it has been happening for longer that one or two tanks of fuel as you claim. I just wonder why should I believe you instead of my customers that are right here in front of me everyday with concrete evidences? I tell you what. If you are serious about, please provide a link to where the REAL company Bosch or Bmw do write about their EFI specs. Or I would settle even just for the model of the Microchips they use in the BMSK, that apparently have the capability of rewriting their own parameters. (So BMW had AI available in their machine all along, but the rest of the world couldn't be bothered so it continued to use Intel or AMD):rofl

    I believe you will find that the all EFI have "parameters" built in, NOT learning capabilities, sorry (Roger Mixer Adaptation Technology), as you claim. You may find them sitting in the EPROM on the bottom left corner of one of the pictures in your thread. As long these products such a Boosterplug, the Ice or even yours do not exceeds those parameters, the Microchip will happily work with the new resistances value that it has been input by the sensor/device. If the new value does exceeds the parameters, then the Microchip will adopt a fail-safe mode (one of the parameter). Going by your logic People in places around the Equator where you can easily have 25-30 Degrees Celsius difference between day and night would have their bike running like shit all the time. But from my own experience the bikes do run better at night (cooler and more oxygen). So having a device that trick the BMSK by only 20 degrees Celsius, obviously does not exceeds those parameters. No Black Magic here... and frankly a quite boring subject all based on pure speculations. I don't sell anything here, so I really don't care. You on the other hand, seem to have an invested interest... I'll just leave it there....

    PS
    Don't you just wish that BMW did use one of the Programmable ECUs, available from Bosch, instead of that cheap piece of junk. Hmmm but maybe it is a programmable ECU!?!....Who knows??.....:D

    Take care
  19. roger 04 rt

    roger 04 rt Long timer

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    I want to start by mentioning that Mixture Adaptation (Long Term Trims) research began at Bosch in the '70s and was first deployed by them in the early '80s, a decade before Oilheads were produced.

    On the r1150, the BMW documentation warns that if you disconnect the battery, adaptation values will be lost and that the motor may not run well until they are recalculated. On the R1200, you can see the lambda control factors (short term adaptations) at work through the GS-911. And the GS-911 has tools for resetting the long term mixture adaptations. I don't know how much more real you can get than that.

    Bosch and BMW have written in detail about the Mixture Adaptation capability but for whatever reasons they choose to only include short references to it in their owner documentation. You don't need to believe a thing I said but you can either trust the measurements of it that I have made or make them yourselves.

    Since it seems you did not read all the posts with Bosch quotes and my measurements I'm going to provide all the links below. If you read them all you will see Bosch writings and Bosch charts interspersed with my own measurements.

    A challenge to those who believe the effect of air temperature modification techniques survive mixture adaptation, describe one measurement using an instrument that demonstrates the effect. I'll gladly perform the measurement and show the results. No vendor of an air shift device has made any such measurement yet to show what their devices do and that the effect is lasting.

    List of mixture adaptation posts
    1) Mixture Adaptation Overview
    2) Bosch Description of Mixture Adaptation for Motronic/Jetronic.
    3) Open Loop with IAT Shift Device before Mixture Adaptation
    4) Measured Control Range of Adaptation
    5) Bosch Chart Explaining Requirement of Mixture Adapation for Alpha/N Fueling
    6) Measure Charts Showing Mixture Adaptation Effect
    7) Further Mixture Adapation Measurements
    8) Measurements of Why Removing an Adapted IAT Device Makes AFR Worse until Readaptation Happens.

    Those words and charts from Bosch and my measurements of those abilitites make Mixture Adaptation a clear capability of BMW fuel injected motorcycles with Motronic and BMSK.
    RB

    Edit:
    Here is a great video on short and long term trims that was added to my Wideband O2 thread.

  20. diabolik37

    diabolik37 Deadly Gubba

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    I've fix it for you.



    You are a good salesman Roger, but you don't need to lie to sell your stuff. It seem to me that you are struggling with the simple concept that we have not YET invented Microchips capable of making decisions. They can only perform functions based on our preset instructions or (PARAMETERS). So as long as your device and all the other ones available in the market today, do NOT EXCEED those parameters, to some extent, they will all work. Some will do better than other, I'll give you that, by none of them to the extent to justify all this money and all this bullshit. If you really want professionally change those parameters (that you call Adaptation), you MUST use the software that allows you to interact with those addresses in the EPROM. I gave you this Hint in my previous post... I seriously hope that the rest of the community does see this as well, and realise what they are dealing with.
    I won't bother with this thread anymore, because it has just occur to me, that maybe the rest of the community here already knew this, and it is me, actually the last one that got stuck in this pointless conversation..:lol3
    Now I got some customers and I need to go back to work....

    Good luck to you Roger, and I seriously hope you will get there and make a fortune....