2009 F650GS won't start.

Discussion in 'Parallel Universe' started by sidecar, Apr 19, 2012.

  1. sidecar

    sidecar Adventurer

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    I ordered the used 1200RT injector, I know they are the same and the ones on my RT have never had a problem in 75,000KM.
    #21
  2. JoelWisman

    JoelWisman Long timer

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    Theres actually 4 filters in the system as each injector has a tiny fine mesh screen in it as well.

    Alcohol and water in the gas are the primary cause, but its not just that, they are weak injectors.

    The alcohol and water corrode the aluminum skin of the fuel pump which then dumps aluminum oxide into the fuel some of which will be smaller then 4 microns and will go through any filter in the world besides electrostatic which isn't practicable.

    Aluminum oxide is a chief ingredient in sandpaper and also sets up electrolytic corrosion once imbedded in the injector valve face in the presence of water which stupid worthless corn farmers lobbyist have insured will always be in gasoline due to the hygroscopic nature of the alcohol they pedal.

    This roughening of the valve face causes varnish from the fuel that would ordinarily cause no issue, to build up and glue the injectors shut.

    BMW or Chevron Techron concentrate works a LOT better for mitigating this problem then sea foam, though sea foam may works as well at preventing it.

    BMW runs the injectors at reduced voltage to make them quieter, you won't harm them applying 14 volts. Volvo, my employer previous to BMW did the same but the very first ping to the injectors was higher voltage actually pulsed DC at 6Khz if memory serves, to not only unstick the injectors but ultrasonically vibrate and clean them. COOL I think, not patented, no reason others couldn't. Yes I know 6Khz isn't ultrasonic, but Bosch pioneered the system and liked the ring of the word "ultrasonic". It wasn't me that named the system or I would have called it plain "sonic" cleaning, though if you live in a place graced with "sonic" burgers you won't associate that word with clean or healthy.


    Since you have already figured out how to spray cleaner through the injectors, try my "trade secret" formula:

    Using a bug sprayer or whatever you can make work, spray first "tarnex" through the injectors. Thats the stuff you use to clean silverware and such. I don't know why it works but I know that it does. Follow this by spraying penetrating oil. I used "PB-Blaster" cause the stuff is amazing, I don't know if other kinds will work.

    Do all the above spraying the chemicals through the injector BACKWARDS. This cleans the seat better as well as emptying the screen which will be storing more aluminum oxide to continue the problem.

    Lastly, blow the injectors out with air, the higher the pressure the better (within reason). At 90 PSI they make a boring hiss as you open the injector valve, but at 145 PSI they make a shrill whistle that maybe "sonically" clean them lol.


    This was how I cleaned the injectors when I worked for Gateway BMW and I never had one fail in the two years I tracked them.

    It is no longer of value to me as I now work for a Piaggio group dealership and Piaggio uses Merelli injectors in their Aprilia, Moto Guzzi, Piaggio, and Vespa products that don't have the sticking issues of that particular Bosch injector BMW is fond of.


    If this works, and even if it doesn't, Chevron or BMW Techron concentrate is highly recommended above all other products I have seen. I have heard enough anecdotal evidence that sea foam works for preventing this problem to believe it likely does, but have seen scientific evidence that BMW, Ducati, Honda, or anyone else's relabeled Chevron Techron works not only at preventing this but to a limited extent it will fix these problems after they start. It also does other beneficial things that sea foam and other products do not and this is why virtually every oem relabels it and makes it theirs.

    Good luck.
    #22
  3. itsatdm

    itsatdm Long timer

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    Thanks Joel, another sticky:deal
    #23
  4. JRWooden

    JRWooden never attribute to malice...

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    Congrats on the new job :clap
    I didn't think you'd hear that quickly!
    They must have loved you ... and for good reason!
    #24
  5. ebrabaek

    ebrabaek Long timer

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    Yay.... Now your gonna be scooting on a Vespa......:clap... I like my 150 thankyouverymuch.....:lol3
    Congrats Joel...:thumb:thumb

    Erling
    #25
  6. sidecar

    sidecar Adventurer

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    Thanks Joel, nice write up.
    #26
  7. JoelWisman

    JoelWisman Long timer

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    :p

    Aprilia: RSV4 1000, DORSODURO 750,
    Moto Guzzi: Stelvio NXT 1200,
    Aprilia Sport City Cube 300 MAYBE

    Vespa, not likely unless I can find a cool pair of goggles that are chrome plated! Safety aside, you simply can't ride a vespa in a full face helmet as it is a fashion fopaw extrordinare!
    #27
  8. sidecar

    sidecar Adventurer

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    Well it ran for a couple of weeks now it won't start again. It has premium no ethanol gas and a some techron in it but it still didn't seem to help. My wife was puttering around on it the other day and said it backfired. Maybe if it was run harder it would have kept going? So I guess I need to change the fuel pump and lines as well. I wish I could find just the fuel pump. New injectors are on there way from germany but will take a month to get here.
    #28
  9. JRWooden

    JRWooden never attribute to malice...

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    Have you been able to test pressure and delivery volume on the pump?
    Here's a cheapie pressure gauge with some adapters

    http://www.harborfreight.com/fuel-injection-pump-tester-92699.html

    manual says specs are 60 liter/hour & 3.5bar pressure

    I saw a video on youtube a while back which I now can not locate wherein a guy had an electric fuel pump that was not operating quite right ... he had pulled it out and had run some WD-40 or similar stuff thru the pump backwards and forwards flushed out some debris and got things freed up....
    #29
  10. sidecar

    sidecar Adventurer

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    The pump seems to pressurize the line fine and the bike ran fine when running. It's like the injectors suddenly get stuck. I can tell they are not firing properly by running the injector test with my GS911. When they are working and the bike runs the sound they make during a test is considerably louder. I guess I will take them of again and try make some sort of flushing mechanism with air and carb cleaner. I should also take the pump off and see if I can clean it out some how and maybe try and find a replacement that fits.
    #30
  11. JRWooden

    JRWooden never attribute to malice...

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    Yeah.......... I think I'd focus on the injectors.....

    I think I recall reading that you can pull the injectors with the fuel rail and crank the bike over and observe the spray pattern to see what is going on ... be VERY careful not to get unprotected skin close to the nozzle when firing else YOU might get injected .... I saw a guy do that once with an airless sprayer ... boy was he sorry...................

    Did you see Joel's append on his cleaning technique?
    #31
  12. sidecar

    sidecar Adventurer

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    I finally found someone that will clean them not to far away, ( usually works on diesels but said he could clean our for $35 each, hopefully it will work.

    I thought I should take out the pump and I flushed it through with seafoam and then Techron. I got a few small particles but not much, then I hooked up the filter and flushed, wow, very mucky looking, the filer sure let lot of dirt through, it sure doesn't seem to stop anything much, no wonder my injectors are plugging up.

    I think the difference with the 650/800 injectors plugging is they only run at 8 volts, if I put 12 on they work fine. I think on the RT and I know some cars they get a little higher voltage at start up to get them going, not sure it the software for these bikes could be updated to include this.

    So can I buy the fuel filter separately? I am also looking to buy a spare fuel pump. It's a Bosch and the # is - 0580453439, and the injector # is - 0280158038. Bosch Canada is bringing them in from Germany and the cost will be $145 for two. The injectors were German numbers so it didn't show up in anyone's catalog so that's when I called Bosch Canada and they confirmed it was a good number but a German one as they had never brought in that injector before. Probably the same for the fuel pump but I haven't got that info yet. Hopefully I can get a fuel filter locally as I don't want to put clean injectors back in without a new fuel filter. If this was my first BMW it would be the last, thankfully I bought an RT first.
    #32