2017 Honda AT Turn signal head scratcher. Bulb to LED.

Discussion in 'Japanese polycylindered adventure bikes' started by Greg the pole, Nov 18, 2019.

  1. Greg the pole

    Greg the pole There are no stupid questions, only stupid people

    Joined:
    Mar 1, 2011
    Oddometer:
    2,303
    Location:
    Calgary, AB
    ok, here's my issue.

    2017 NA (Canadian to be specific) manual AT.

    I was never a fan of the giant OEM incandescent (bulbs) turn signals (TS). I recently got flung off the bike and broke the left turn signal. I had it taped together for the longest time.

    This winter it was time to upgrade to Aftermarket (AM) TS.

    I was not about to pay $90 CDN for an OEM TS, that looked like shit, and was expensive!

    So..flea bay delivers these. Bright AF, when wired properly, and cheap. OOOOO and they bend!
    https://flic.kr/p/2hJKXiD

    below is the TS mounted on my beater SV from last year w/o resistors installed, hence slightly fast rate.

    This years' project SV has similar signals, but resistors installed, to slow flash rate, which works dandy! vid to follow.

    So simples right!!...
    P=IV
    21W=?? Amps *12V
    I=1.75A
    plugging that into: V=IR gives
    12V/1.75A=6.8 Ohms resistance.

    Add some resistors to mimic the original bulb load with say a 20 watt (calculated 6.5 ohm) or 25w watt (calculated 8.16 Ohm) resistor on each corner and bazinga!
    Nope!!
    Still flashing fast. Closer inspection shows the resistance of the bulb at .6 Ohms (Metered). Edit..that's just the resistance of the filament within the bulb. Disregard.

    Honda is all over the shop with their manual and schematics.
    Which state, that the two wire model bikes (mine) are actually LED..Not a bulb..Wrong!
    Mine is a bulb, and two wire. WTF?!

    See page 566 through 568 for the various models.
    A few snips below, with highlighted mis matched parts.
    Below shows three wire, bulbs, TS relay and diode (highlighted)

    View attachment 2000481
    The two wire models (LED accoring to mr. honder..) use a turn signal light relay (18P connector!)
    I have not taken the rear section apart to see if it has a diode relay (honda specs one for the bulbed bikes, and will not go digging for the TS light relay which is buried under the ABS pump...allegedly.
    UPDATE: My bike is definitely controlled by the TS light relay.
    No regular relay or diode.


    CRF1000A and D for that matter show, two wire, LED, and the TS Light relay (highlighted)
    View attachment 2000482

    UPDATE:
    Not quite there yet. I do have another hair brained idea that I will attempt tonight!

    if someone much sharper than me has sorted this, please speak up!
    and no, i'm not going back to those POS bulbs...need to get this figured out.

    full snips of diagrams in next post.

    MOAR updates: Right...I wasn't 100% happy with the fast flash rate. Looking now at the vid, the turn signals flash fast already, right off the battery. So thinking it might be the signals.
    I even attempted to use the TS voltage to control a relay. Nope, it still blinked fast, and complicated the issue even more.
    I'm now throwing more money at it. Ordered a three wire LED that allegedly doesn't need resistors. Damn.
    #1
  2. Greg the pole

    Greg the pole There are no stupid questions, only stupid people

    Joined:
    Mar 1, 2011
    Oddometer:
    2,303
    Location:
    Calgary, AB
    CRF1000 Schem.PNG CRF1000A Schem.PNG
    #2
  3. mentolio

    mentolio King of the island of unwanted toys...

    Joined:
    Jul 14, 2016
    Oddometer:
    933
    Not an electrical expert, but my understanding of using diodes/resistors with LED turn signals is that using them allows you to not have to replace the factory flasher. If you don’t want to use additional resistors you can buy a flasher made specifically to work with LED turn signals from Procycle. Would that not work on the Africa twin? Forgive my ignorance, I have an Africa twin, but I haven’t messed with changing the stock turn signals out for LEDs (yet, anyway). I did the LED swap on my DR250 (I know it’s like comparing a Sopwith Camel to the Space Shuttle in complexity) using the Procycle stuff to include a turn signal isolator for proper function of the dash light. Works perfectly, and was super easy to install. Is the AT turn signal system so much more complex than other more primitive bikes that this simple solution wouldn’t work?
    #3
  4. Greg the pole

    Greg the pole There are no stupid questions, only stupid people

    Joined:
    Mar 1, 2011
    Oddometer:
    2,303
    Location:
    Calgary, AB
    that makes two guys with led's on suzukis that work.
    The honda is not so simple.
    my 2017 is two wire, but is a weird ass relay. It can't be easily replaced. Not the typical relay the Suzuki's have.
    Thinking is to find the correct resistor to mimic the now missing bulb.
    #4
  5. mentolio

    mentolio King of the island of unwanted toys...

    Joined:
    Jul 14, 2016
    Oddometer:
    933
    Oh my! So I pulled out the "Great Book of War and Peace with the Africa Twin" (doesn't seem right to call a book thicker than the Bible just a "manual") and looked at the wiring diagram (couldn't see your attachments). Holy crap! I never took notice that my signals were two wire with incandescent bulbs, and yet the fronts are illuminated. That and step one to accessing the relay: "remove tank." Ok, now I get why you are using resistors! Man, I wish I knew enough to help you with this, but I damned sure don't. I'm guessing it's so "extra complicated" because while the bulbs in our signals are incandescent, the indicator on the dash is LED, and so that relay may be solid-state instead of an electro-mechanical switch, or some combo of the two? I'll just be over here on the sidelines, quietly watching the adults figure this one out...
    #5
  6. Greg the pole

    Greg the pole There are no stupid questions, only stupid people

    Joined:
    Mar 1, 2011
    Oddometer:
    2,303
    Location:
    Calgary, AB
    The display gets a 12v signal to the led indicator from the TS relay.
    I got it half way there tonight.
    10 ohm 25w resistor on each end slows the rate down, or a 7.5 ohm 25w resistor on each end.
    The ts relay needs to stay as is.
    #6
  7. Greg the pole

    Greg the pole There are no stupid questions, only stupid people

    Joined:
    Mar 1, 2011
    Oddometer:
    2,303
    Location:
    Calgary, AB
    I tried to re attach the diagrams.. not workee.
    At any rate.
    2016 and 2017 NA bikes are all:
    Bulbed, no conventional relay, or diode pack. Just the stupidly complicated TS light relay.
    It does some bs magic on the running light, by switching outputs on the TS relay, when in running light mode, and sending roughly 6v at a higher frequency.
    Once prompted by the TS switch itself, it gets a signal from left or right, then uses a different wire to output a full 12V to the TS. IF it sense low resistance on either wire (front and back are separated) it gives it a faster flash rate. Below is my explanation on the schematic.
    turn signal relay explenation.PNG

    Attached Files:

    #7
  8. Greg the pole

    Greg the pole There are no stupid questions, only stupid people

    Joined:
    Mar 1, 2011
    Oddometer:
    2,303
    Location:
    Calgary, AB
    Got the blinkers in from Chiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiina.
    They sort of work, without resistors, are bright, and look damn good.
    #8
  9. KDouble

    KDouble AKA BeefCurtain

    Joined:
    Jul 13, 2009
    Oddometer:
    392
    Location:
    Colorado, Montana
    Nice work thanks for sharing hope to dive into this myself those stock signals are hideous.
    #9
  10. Greg the pole

    Greg the pole There are no stupid questions, only stupid people

    Joined:
    Mar 1, 2011
    Oddometer:
    2,303
    Location:
    Calgary, AB
    NP. The chinesium jobbies look and work ok. For the price, can't really go wrong
    #10