3m 4411n sealing tape tubeless conversion

Discussion in 'The Garage' started by Flynn_, May 21, 2016.

  1. ohgood

    ohgood Just givver tha berries !!!

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    by hand was only an example... a rock or root moves the tire a lot more than
    yes... for me the same/dirt kept making its way deeper into the bead area until it leaked. it took a few weeks, but it was repeatable every time.
  2. thetubespoke

    thetubespoke Been here awhile

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    Yikes, that does not sound good. Were you able to clean the bead from the outside or did you have to remount the tire? What pressures were you running? What tires, if you don't mind me asking?

    Sounds like the stiffer sidewalls do better. Not sure either if the DR-Z400S wheels have the "safety bead" or not.
  3. ohgood

    ohgood Just givver tha berries !!!

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    there is no safety bead on the k/e/s wheels.

    i tried it with shinko241, 244, and a stiffer tire but i dont remember which ( i have a big pile) and they all got cinnamon sized dirt into the bead until it leaked

    this was at 13-14psi
  4. thetubespoke

    thetubespoke Been here awhile

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    Do you think it's possible for this to happen with normally tubeless wheels and tires? Maybe it's one of the main reasons dirt bikes/enduros have used tubes for so long.
  5. Motopsychoman

    Motopsychoman Not a total poseur Supporter

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    The answer is yes. It isn't unique to taped rims. It due to running low pressures. The Tubliss system is the only way around running such low pressures and avoiding standard tubes that I am aware of. And even the Tubliss system has some issues that have been discussed on the forums. But the Tubliss system doesn't depend on having air in the tire to hold it to the rim. Tubliss is essentially like having a continuous rim lock.

    If you run 1/2 the pressure, you have 1/2 the force holding the bead to the rim. It is directly proportional. A stiffer sidewall can help, but not that much and only because it is better at distributing the forces of side impacts, not because the tire itself exerts any force on the rim. A typical 18" tire has around 200sq.in. of sidewall on each side. @14PSI, that's 14x200=2,800 lbs of force holding 56" bead in place or 50 lbs per inch of bead. @28PSI, that's 28x200=5,600 lbs or 100 lbs per inch of bead.
    Cornering forces, hitting rocks and limbs against the sidewall can exert huge forces over fairly small areas, exceeding that holding force and letting dirt in and air out. Ever popped a bead on your car hitting a curb?

    Lesson: if you run tubeless, don't air down (or not nearly as much).
    jim825 and thelastfoiter like this.
  6. ohgood

    ohgood Just givver tha berries !!!

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    zero chance if it has a ridge that the bead slips over , like regular street wheels. the only way to break them loose it's too run ultra low pressure (10psi or less) and ride aggressively with super heavy braking/acceleration.

    maybe so
  7. mouthfulloflake

    mouthfulloflake Not afraid

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    Id like to convert my DR650 wheels but I also like to run the Shinko 244 tires, do you think they would still leak that sugar sand in if I kept the air pressure say over 24 psi?



  8. ohgood

    ohgood Just givver tha berries !!!

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    i don't think they would leak. i think (hypothesis not theory) the lower pressure let's the sidewall move left/right enough to
    let debris in and eventually foil the seal
  9. worncog

    worncog YBNormal Supporter

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    I too am looking at converting my DR650 wheels to tubeless. Minkyhead previously mentioned the use of Stans, and I too am a big advocate of Stans. Used it in mtb racing for a few years with excellent results. Also have used Stans in my enduro Tubliss system for two years with zero issues. It would seem that the 3M tape and Stans is the best way to go, at least for me.

    I am planning on having two sets of wheels and using tubeless on both. One set with Mitas E07s (19/17) and a second knobby set with 606 rear and Tubliss front with a fatty Goldentyre (21/17). Mitas are tough tires, and besides, I have a pile of take-offs from the Tenere that have at least half life left.
  10. Motopsychoman

    Motopsychoman Not a total poseur Supporter

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    I have two sets for my G650GS, both tubeless conversions. One set wears E-07 Dakars front and rear. The other set is usually more street oriented, like I have a TKC70 on the other front at the moment.

    I'm not clear that there is any need to seal the spoke nipples twice. The tape does a more than adequate job by itself, with the exception of inmate Flattopwill who recently had two tape failures on his bike (just want to get the word out there that this can happen).

    Tubliss is a whole different animal with a couple of upsides and downsides. First, the upside is that you can essentially run zero PSI in the tire for traction and it won't come off the rim. With the tape conversion, I wouldn't run lower than mid-20s PSI. The downsides are the system can be hard to mount with the tire and they don't make Tubliss in any useful sizes for many of us.

    The only downside for the tape that I'm aware of is the bead surface of both the rim and the tire have to be smooth to seal. I'd like to convert the old Akront rims on my G/S but the sealing surfaces are deeply knurled to help keep the tire from slipping. Can't see how that it would ever seal to hold air.

    Whatever route you go with tape and/or sealant, just make really certain the rim is free of any loose debris, totally clean and dry before applying. You should be fine.
    thelastfoiter likes this.
  11. davidji

    davidji bike curious

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    Bumping an old thread with a new question:
    Have you tried using a bead sealing compound like https://www.amazon.com/Xtra-14-101-Seal-Bead-Sealer/dp/B000GKD722
    as part of a tubeless conversion on a rim that didn't have bead retention grooves/safety bead? Has it worked to maintain the bead seal in event of a flat, allowing a simple plug and inflate repair?
  12. JerryH

    JerryH To Each Their Own Supporter

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    Right now I'm riding a Yamaha XT225. Several members on the XT225 forum have had broken spokes, damaged holes in the soft aluminum hub, and even spoke nipples being pulled through the rim after switching to stronger spokes. You can get better rims for $$$, but you are pretty much stuck with the stock hub. I saw one picture of a stock hub where an aftermarket spoke had torn right through the hole in the hub. It seems most everybody having problems like this were running very low pressures off road. It leads me to believe that wheel flex combined with a cheaply made wheel was the main reason. I run 32 PSI all the time, but I am not a hardcore off road rider. I mostly ride fairly smooth fire roads and trails, not the really rough stuff. I would not try to climb a steep rutted hill. I'm 60 and partially disabled, so I no longer ride like I used to. I'm just a low speed trail rider. But I still ride 20-30 miles out into the AZ desert, which can put me out of cell phone range, and would be in serious trouble if I had a flat tire. So unfortunately I have not been off road riding much recently, and have to stay pretty close to real roads. I am using those super thick 4mm tubes from Rocky Mountain ATV, and have only had one flat with those in about 4 years. I was constantly having flats with the really thin oem tubes. I sure wish someone made tubeless wheels for this bike. I may go ahead and try the tubeless conversion, stay close to civilization for a while, and see how it holds up.
  13. Motopsychoman

    Motopsychoman Not a total poseur Supporter

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    As long as you aren't airing down below about 20 PSI you should be fine. Do inspect the rims to make sure the bead surface is smooth. Make sure you get the rims super clean and use isopropyl alcohol or 3M's AP100 to prep the rim before taping.
    UHD tubes work well as long as you don't ride on the freeway. They get really hot.
  14. foxtrapper

    foxtrapper Long timer

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    Looks like his rims do have the right design actually.
  15. severely

    severely almost a noob

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    Look for some TTR wheels, stronger spokes, rims. Good luck