3m 4411n sealing tape tubeless conversion

Discussion in 'The Garage' started by Flynn_, May 21, 2016.

  1. GhettoCanuck

    GhettoCanuck Been here awhile

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    I'm not looking to revive dead threads or anything, but when you perform this style of tubeless conversion should you use a tire designed to run tubeless? Like a TKC80 or something? Most dual sport tires are tube type.
  2. Motopsychoman

    Motopsychoman Not a total poseur Supporter

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    I would recommend it. The problem with some tube-type tires is the beading area is not smooth enough to seal properly. The bead on many tube-type tires, particularly dirt and MX tires, may be patterned to help keep the bead from slipping on the rim. If the beaning area is perfectly smooth, it may well seal. I know my tube-type K60 has radial ridges that would not seal if I tried.

    I also have 1980's Akront rims on my G/S that are heavily patterned to reduce slippage and, as much as I'd like to, I won't be able to convert those rims.

    One inmate did say he uses some sort of bead cement, but I wouldn't recommend it.

    These days, if you are looking for a 50/50 tire, there should be plenty of true tubeless options. If you are looking for something far more aggressive, inspect the mating surface of the bead carefully. Don't rely on a picture: look at the actual tire you intend to buy.
    KaptSlo likes this.
  3. GhettoCanuck

    GhettoCanuck Been here awhile

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    So even if it's a tube type tyre, if the bead is smooth I could run it tubeless?
  4. Motopsychoman

    Motopsychoman Not a total poseur Supporter

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    It should seal, but I can't say I'd recommend it. Personal opinion only. The bead on a true tubeless tire might be a bit thicker and tougher, but otherwise the tire construction isn't much different. But sealing the rim is also not a DOT approved method. I'm personally willing to take that risk so as not to spend hours fixing a flat on the rear in particular. I really don't want to have to wrestle a Mitas E-07 Dakar off the rear rim unless absolutely necessary.

    I run thick sidewalled DS tires, like E07 Dakars, K60s and the like, as the thick sidewall hangs over the edge of the rim and keeps it mounted even if it goes flat. I've ridden 70 freeway miles on a front flat and didn't really notice except the steering felt heavy.

    You will hear some folks say that a tubeless setup will go flat more quickly than a tube flat. I don't believe it. It all depend on what you ran over. And with a tubeless setup you can't experience a pinch flat, but you can break loose a bead and have a rapid deflation.

    If you are thinking about running very low pressures with dirt tires, tubes are a better bet. You need to keep a tubeless setup inflated to 20 PSI (140 kPa) to reduce the risk of the bead leaking.
    thelastfoiter likes this.
  5. DeepBarney

    DeepBarney International Bumbler

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    You're more likely to be successful in the endeavor. Seems some applications are more successful than others. Personally I decided against it for my dirt bike, though my Bonneville may yet still get the treatment.
  6. frascati

    frascati Adventurer

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    Thorough cleaning with wire brush then solvent. Coat the nipples' inside with a light cotton swab dab of release wax for later spoke tuning. Lay down a good thick coat of rtv silicone. Immediately seal/contain the whole with a huge wide rubber band cut from an inner tube one size smaller than your rim? What?

    I hate tubes too. I also like vintage bikes. So I'm interested in this thread.
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  7. JerryH

    JerryH To Each Their Own Supporter

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    First of all, I have not yet read this whole thread. I love the idea of being able to use tubeless tires on my dual sport. But I see several problems. I haven't seen any actual tubeless tires for dual sports. The BMW GS and Yamaha Super Tenere use tubeless tires on spoke wheels made for tubeless tires by the factory. I don't know why they all don't do this. The 1986 Honda Rebel 450 used tubeless tires on wire spoke wheels. It's not new technology. Second, the spokes on tube type wheels flex. And they have to be adjusted once in a while. Wouldn't that break the seal where the spoke nipples come through the holes in the rim? I have seen both dual sport bikes and dirt bikes with broken spokes, very loose spokes, and spokes where the nipple pulled right through then rim. It seems things like that would cause a leak. I am reaching the age where repairing tube type tires out in the middle of nowhere would not longer be easy, maybe not even possible. But I'm not ready to give up off road riding just yet.
  8. Motopsychoman

    Motopsychoman Not a total poseur Supporter

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    I can't speak to specific DS tires, but there are a great many DS/ADV style tires available in TL or TT/TL. A real aggressive dirt bike knobby might not be available in TL. If the bead surface is smooth, it would probably hold air but a stiff sidewall certainly helps hold the tire on the rim. I also never run them below 20-22 PSI.

    As for spoke adjustments, I try to only do them when the tire is off the rim. I've done a few 1-2 turn adjustments with tires mounted or not and had no leaks so far. I put on a full second layer of 3M 4412 tape for that specific reason. After mounting a tire at home, I inflate it to 50 PSI and check it the next day. So far so good. I've done 3 or 4 rears and 5 or so fronts so far without a leak.
  9. buelrdr29

    buelrdr29 Adventurer

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    Anybody tried this with a rim lock?
  10. Motopsychoman

    Motopsychoman Not a total poseur Supporter

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    Wouldn't want to. It would be virtually impossible to seal repeatedly.
  11. ohgood

    ohgood Just givver tha berries !!!

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    yup. if youre running pressure low enough to need a rim lock.... all it takes is a root/rock to push the sidewall in and deflate quickly.

    at 13-15psi i could push the sidewall over with my thumb, air escaped. at 30 psi... there really wasnt a point in deleting tubes... but i really like 13psi, so tubes it is
  12. Motopsychoman

    Motopsychoman Not a total poseur Supporter

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    Yup, the tubeless conversion isn't for anything that requires airing down. I never run (intentionally) below about 22-24 PSI.
    But it also depends on the tire. You would have a lot a trouble breaking the bead seal by hand with a K60 or Mitas E-07 Dakar on the rim. A true dirt bike knobby usually has a pretty flexible sidewall.
  13. Pablo Mac

    Pablo Mac Been here awhile

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    My biggest concern is how well your tires will remain seated if your wheels don't have the safety bead. I never run lower than about 30 psi on my KTM 990 Adventure, and I don't want to bother converting my non-tubeless wheels to tubeless if I'm going to have to worry about this. Any experienced-based advice out there?
  14. Motopsychoman

    Motopsychoman Not a total poseur Supporter

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    No safety bead on any of the 4 wheels I've taped. Have not had a single problem in over 25,000+ miles of riding converted rims.

    I also run tires with pretty stiff sidewalls. About the weakest sidewall tires I've run are TKC70 and TKC80 fronts. Mostly I've been running Mitas E-07 (Dakar) tires, some K60s and one MotoZ. All stiff sidewall tires.

    On-road I usually run 33-36 PSI. Off-road 22-25 PSI.
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  15. Pablo Mac

    Pablo Mac Been here awhile

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    Thanks - that's what I was hoping to hear.
  16. Kevin67

    Kevin67 Plonker

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    If a tube deflates and the wheel has no safety bead is that any different to a tubeless tyre with no safety bead?
    I figure the result will be the same so I'm considering the tubeless conversion myself for a Bonneville T120.
  17. WDG

    WDG Not entirely domesticated

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    I may be mistaken, but I seem to recall the rims on the T120 having the safety ridge on the beads, in spite of being tubed rims. I haven’t been into them myself, though, so can’t confirm that.
  18. Kevin67

    Kevin67 Plonker

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    I'd better have a look for myself when I'm back at home next week and post my learnings on here.
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  19. thetubespoke

    thetubespoke Been here awhile

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    Thank you everyone for testing and pioneering this. It seems pretty huge to me, tubeless has numerous advantages.

    Has anyone done this on a DRZ-400S? Have you tried repeated water crossings and sand with this setup?

    I'd like to give this a go at some point.
  20. Motopsychoman

    Motopsychoman Not a total poseur Supporter

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    Water crossings yes, lots of sand no and not on a DRZ. The only time water or sand might have an impact is if you aired way down to where the bead may squirm. At that point it is probably likely to go flat anyway. I personally do not plan on ever getting below 20PSI (on a much heavier bike).
    thetubespoke and DeepBarney like this.