690R carburetor conversion mod.

Discussion in 'Thumpers' started by Visigothic, Feb 27, 2011.

  1. Visigothic

    Visigothic Been here awhile

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    Your probably right. Another visual aid



    FI [​IMG]vs [​IMG] carb

    Who would survive the out door adventure longest?...................................:rofl
    #81
  2. Fabnut

    Fabnut Been here awhile

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    holy shit Mo, that'd be some feat of backyard engineering if you could pull that off brother :eek1:eek1:eek1
    #82
  3. Bill the Bong

    Bill the Bong Supern00ba

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    Enough of that. Take it apart and do it again, taking step by step photos.
    #83
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  4. Fabnut

    Fabnut Been here awhile

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    :lol3
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  5. Seth S

    Seth S Will _____ for _____

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    The challenge comes in separating the ignition from the EFI system itself. The ignition mapping may not be separable from the EFi programming. If we could crack this egg it would reduce the cost and simplify the process. the Stock EFI has an EFI module and an EPT box...neither of which are independent ignition boxes that could just be wired in and fooled to run. it might be possible to trick the computer with tune ECU to run the ignition but have never tried it. Part of the idea of installing a carb is to get rid of the mass of wiring and simplify the space under the seat.

    Another possibility is to use a microsquirt computer to manage the ignition....readily available and well supported and they should be able to support ignition only.


    to further expand on the ignition ideas...it should be possible to install a cdi unit out of pretty much any other motorcycle out there as long as you can configure the trigger point properly. As seen in the photo above the flywheel for the RR has numerous hi/low spots machined into it which are used for timing. The stock EFI flywheel lacks those but has a spot somewhere that the EFI determines TDCF from. If you looked at the flywheel for say a 640 adventure you could deduce its marking sequence and probably modify the 690 flywheel accordingly.


    here is some random ktm flywheel...you can see the raise strip of metal on top of the flywheel that is used as the timing mark:

    [​IMG]
    #85
  6. DirtJack

    DirtJack Adventurer Supporter

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    It is already separated. There are separate ignition advance tables for each of the maps in a map set. The starting place is what's there for any given map. Throttle position is another issue. Does the carb being used want to know throttle position? If so, that may be trickier to get what the carb wants from what is specified in a map set.
    #86
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  7. Seth S

    Seth S Will _____ for _____

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    I meant more along the lines of...can the ignition portion be run without the EFI...or does the ignition stop operating when the appropriate EFI Q's are removed. Sort of....how does one jailbreak the ignition.
    #87
  8. DirtJack

    DirtJack Adventurer Supporter

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    Let the EFI stuff run. The carb won't know it. It's my guess that with the sensors intact and injector valve connected (you could seal it in electrical shrink wrap and zip it to frame) the bike will run with a carb just fine. Turn off O2 because there is no need for the ECU to run in loop back mode. Easy to try. :D
    #88
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  9. Seth S

    Seth S Will _____ for _____

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    following that thought and looking at the wiring diagrams for the bike there are 3 pins out of the computer EFI box that relate directly to the ignition and 2 for throttle:
    Pin 22 is the output to the ignition coil
    Pins 23 and 24 connect to the ignition pulse generator.

    Pin 11 is throttle twist
    Pin 13 is throttle position

    I do not know what the difference is between the throttle twist sensor and throttle position. But it looks like the TPS has power and ground and a voltage...might be able to use the tps on the carb.


    if it worked it would be very easy to build a new harness that just used the stock computer and only the barest of inputs to minimize a wiring harness.
    #89
  10. Seth S

    Seth S Will _____ for _____

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  11. Fabnut

    Fabnut Been here awhile

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    Sorry to correct you Seth but the photo I had was of the stock 690 flywheel with multiple triggers, see below. The RR unit looked similar to the one in your photo, smooth outside with a single trigger, but I didnt take a photo of it sorry :D
    Remember I said that I didnt change out the stock flywheel initially & had massive timing issues, in fact I was getting a constant spark rather than a timed spark....that was thru the new RR ECU

    [​IMG]
    #91
  12. Seth S

    Seth S Will _____ for _____

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    I caught that error but didnt correct enough posts apparently....figured that out today while searching flywheels.

    I think i will probably just use a microsquirt computer to run ignition as they are relatively cheap and well supported.
    #92
  13. Fabnut

    Fabnut Been here awhile

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    Ill be very curious to see how you go with that Seth, be good to have some tuneability on the ignition
    #93
  14. DirtJack

    DirtJack Adventurer Supporter

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    Big if. We know the pre 2014 690 EFI had a manual throttle open/close with sensors which read the throttle position from the the manual input but also has a motor to open/close the throttle butterfly to a computer selected opening which is more appropriate than what the rider selected. For example, low rpm, rider whacks the throttle wide open. On a carbed bike you might get a bit of bog when there is too much fuel/air for the rpm. On the 690 you get the max fuel/air the motor can accommodate at the given rpm.

    Embedded control systems have to do elaborate checking of sensor values to ensure they are within proper operating range and take some appropriate action when they are not. Being a software guy, I don't hold much hope that the Kehin/KTM software will even run unless all the sensors/controllers appear to be there with proper values. Besides, all you are saving is the weight of a bit of wire.

    As I said before, the carb will ignore all that (except perhaps the throttle position--don't know if the particular carb being used requires throttle position input).
    #94
  15. johnno950

    johnno950 Long timer

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    Terrific result runtboy!,what way are you going for air filter/box assembly?,no dramas with the filter you got now on carby,or got something else in pipeline?
    #95
  16. Bill the Bong

    Bill the Bong Supern00ba

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    Vortex ignitions have a replacement ECU for the 690 (which I have ran for the past 3 years). I think it will be do-able for them to set-up 1 that will be compatible with a carb.
    #96
  17. Fabnut

    Fabnut Been here awhile

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    Thanks Johnno, Im just gonna run the K & N & Ive had no dramas thus far as I ran one with the FI set up & actually adapted the trumpet from the original airbox to it, installed the evo 1 map & it made it rip.
    The whole idea for running the pod filter in the first place was to liberate all that space for my underseat storage compartment I knocked up. Im doing the CSR in July & wanted to create some on bike storage for bits & pieces etc

    The pod filter pictured had the original trumpet inside it....went like stink after putting it on :eek1

    [​IMG]
    #97
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  18. Fabnut

    Fabnut Been here awhile

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    My thoughts exactly Bill & in fact Id flicked em an email this morning in regards to tha very subject. Itd be good if they could manage something with some adjustability.
    #98
  19. johnno950

    johnno950 Long timer

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    Good stuff,your a clever lad old mate,have a good trip in july.
    #99
  20. Seth S

    Seth S Will _____ for _____

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    I asked them a year ago and they said no...but to check back because they might have something in the future.