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Discussion in 'Parallel World (790/890)' started by CalamariKid, Dec 14, 2019.
Action Kawasaki Yamaha in Bradenton.
I have to wonder why all the confusion over the QS. Could it be because the QS hardware is stock but the software is not. So, when we and dealers ask KTM if QS is stock, they say yes. Also, on my early 2019 model, the transmission is so well designed and built that it can be shifted without QS enabled. True, shifting is somewhat clunky but I can see why someone would think they have the QS feature but really don't. It took two different dealers to successfully enable my QS and once that was done, it started working pretty much like a QS should. I know what a real QS feels like because I've had that on several other bikes (BMW). I'm finally fairly satisfied with my KTM QS now but it's still not as slick as what I experienced on my Beemers.
It is confusing for sure and I can't help but think that it is more than just user confusion. I've had quick shifters on track bikes and familiar with how they work.
On my stock 790ADVR if I slowly pushed down on the shift lever at speed the motor would blip in preparation to a shift. If I slowly lifted the shift lever the ignition would cut in preparation of a shift. It all worked normally as a quick shifter does when shifting (under load for upshifts, under engine braking for down shifts), slick as a whistle. The problem was I didn't really want a quick shifter on this bike. I had the optional software installed and turned QS off. Now it no longer blips or cuts the ignition when I slowly press down or lift up on the shift lever with my toe. When I enable it in the menu it works just like it did before I had the optional software installed and had no menu option to turn it on or off.
I'm going with it being plain old KTM software quirkyness.
I'll only add that when I first rode my 790, a few times I would get a missed shift or false neutral etc. The problem turned out to be the toe of my boot getting caught under the skid plate edge. Had my foot turned in too far. Doubt that's it, but figured I'd share it, in case.
It wasn't until I finally leaned way over to look that I realized my boot was trying to lift the skid plate, and not the shift lever
[QUOTE="TrailTrauma, post: 39856691, member: 224344]The problem turned out to be the toe of my boot getting caught under the skid plate edge.[/QUOTE]
I had that problem too. I couldn’t feel the shift lever through my Mx boot. After missing a few shifts I started trying to over compensate and was grabbing the skid plate with my toe.
Precisely!! Glad I looked finally and figured it out. It was driving me a bit batty lol
I think the confusion is that the QS was originally advertised as a paid upgrade and KTM screwed up when they didn’t disable it at the factory.
Everything after that is people backpedaling and making shit up.
For whatever reason, the Rally is exempted by the TSB. It would appear that the Rally has the software included, as the TSB tells the dealer NOT to buy it for the Rally ("no refunds!") and to not try to enable it with the tool they use to do it. I had to read the TSB several times as they are saying that the 890 Duke R models are OK with QS now, not to use the tool on the Rally, and that the ADV R cannot have the QS installed until who-knows-when.
^ Jeez, seems that a KTM department is not communicating with another KTM department and the assembly line guys / girls are just shrugging their shoulders (cracking another beer) and continue to assemble motorcycles...
My 790 standard model 2019 was delivered with QS activated but I don’t have the settings visible in the dashboard. I’ve been arguing with two dealers about this and called KTM Scandinavia for a formal explanation, but it seems that there is just a big confusing on this matter. Common explanation that I get is that I have QS standard version, and the ability to turn it off is limited to the QS+ addon.
This is for me just utter BS and poor handling from KTM. Nowhere is it mentioned in the owner manuals or in any product information connected to the bike that you can shift clutchless as standard, its always stated that this is a function limited to the QS+ package. It’s clear to me that KTM screwed up and now they don’t take responsibility for this, instead they come up with second hand explanations instead of fixing the mistake. When I explained to KTM that I bought a bike that was advertised to have QS, but the settings are missing, then they basically asked me “So, what’s the problem? It’s working anyways”, and this seems to be the general opinion from KTM on this.
If this was true, that the bike was intended to have QS as standard feature, then they are screwing over people by selling the QS+ package advertising it as the option to shift clucthless and not only have the possibility to turn it off. They are confusing customers and dealers with this behaviour and messing up second hand market for us early supporters by letting bikes with configurations that doesn’t really exists continue to run without fixing it.
Why cant they just admit that they screwed up and let everyone who has QS “standard model” as they call it, have the QS+ function installed in the software? I think people understand that when you buy a first model of a bike there will be issues that will be fixed later in the production, but just ignoring it like KTM does with the QS is seriously poor management from their side.
I haven’t let a KTM dealer touch my bike out of fear they’ll hook it up to a computer and it’ll disable the QS. They’re loosing my business over this.
I don’t think you need to worry about that. When I spoke with KTM they assured me that the wouldn’t remove the QS function for those who got it without buying QS+, they just refuse to let us have all the functions, instead they call one standard QS and the other QS+. I they did remove it I would raise hell with the dealer I bought the bike from, they advertised it to have QS option.
I’m going to the dealer next week to have my rear brake recall done and I will also ask them to calibrate the QS for me. Shifting up from 2-3-4 is sometimes not as smooth as it is going rom 4-5-6. Other than that I’m very happy with the function.
I’ve read and heard from others that QS in general is not something that you should use as it will shorten the lifetime of the gearbox, worst case even lead to a break down. Some say this is true, others says it will not do any harm at all. I guess only time will tell how it will affect the KTM’s.
From everything I’ve read the bike has a crashbox for clutchless shifting and if anything the QS removes the user error when rev matching and should make the gearbox last longer.
I’ve read some suggestions that it might be harder on the chain and sprocket since the shifting isn’t absorbed by the clutch, but I don’t see how decelerating under engine breaking would be harder on the drive train than accelerating off an average stoplight.
Myself, I’ve found I’ve developed what I’ll call a quarter clutch technique over time. I’ll pull it in enough that it slips when shifting gears but not enough that it disengages. The bike still rev matches but it softens the shift. Some will argue that it’s just transferring the wear onto the clutch plate, but I’ll counter argue that it’s probably less wear than a full granny shift.
When riding aggressive I don’t bother with the quarter clutch, but it’s nice for puttering around town since it smooths out the ride.
Only shifting without the clutch and without a quickshifter puts your at risk to damage your gear box. Motorcycles with OEM quickshifters are perfectly safe in this regard.
That's where I am. Shift with the quickshifter within the specified RPM range and all is well.
I agree to a point. I'd say only shifting without the clutch and not properly rev matching puts you at to risk to damage to your gearbox.
All a quickshifter is doing is quickly adding or reducing throttle momentarily to unload the gearbox enough to allow the shift to occur with limited violence, same thing happens when manually rev matching. No magic to it, no complex algorithms calculating speed or load on the drivetrain, just a simple throttle blip or cut without the rider doing it manually.
And just like quick shifting manually it is not as smooth in some scenarios as it is in others. The thing to be mindful of for the long term health of the gearbox is that a poorly executed clutchless shift using either method is tough on the gearbox in the long term and well executed clutchless shifts are not.
All the above just opinions based on observation of their function, not any insider or professional level knowledge, so who know, could all be a bunch of bs, lol.
My advice when clutchless shifting is to make a habit of being slightly gentle on the shift lever until the actual shifts starts and then at that point finish the shift with authority. This should eliminate forcing a bad shift against too much pressure and the firm and complete follow thru will help eliminate false neutrals.
I guess my point is a QS allows you to think less about all the componants of a clutchless shift but still shouldn't be done mindlessly. The bike isn't calculating load scenarios, it's just slipping and clipping the throttle to facilitate the shift
When going to a lower (15T) front sprocket is there any argument for getting one of the Ognibene sprockets (photo below) that Rottweiler sells. And during install I suspect a few guys have also purchased the Motion Pro sprocket Jammer, yes?
I'm curious too, as I ordered a solid cast 15t sprocket before I realized that the OEM sprocket has a similar cushioning. Should I get the OEM, or would the solid one work just fine - I believe the Super Sprox I bought is similar to the OEM for the 640/690/701.
Is it any different than the OEM rubber damped 15t sprocket? The KTM 690 comes with a rubber damped 15t sprocket stock and fits the 790 as well.
As for the motion pro... hey we all but gadgets for whatever reasons. A screw driver handle or wadded up rag does the same thing. Just sayin...
No need for a jammer. Just have a friend / significant other stand on the rear brake pedal. I just used a 2ft breaker bar to pull the countershaft nut off. Super easy.
Also, the damped sprockets are just far quieter. Only benefit. I prefer them.