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790 Adventure R - high side, where was the TC?

Discussion in 'Parallel World (790/890)' started by InconelWolf, Dec 23, 2019.

  1. InconelWolf

    InconelWolf Adventurer

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    Hi all,

    Hopefully this hasn't already been covered somewhere, did a quick search and couldn't find it.

    Anyway just picked my 2020 790 Adventure R a week ago and within 5 days already had a pretty heavy crash... Was turning left onto a dry empty road and after passing the apex and leveling out the bike I started to add some gas at which point the bike massively broke rear wheel traction, went almost completely sideways before snapping back into a high side with predictable results leaving me with a concussion and broken clavicle :-(. I knew the bike was new to me and had new tires so really wasn't riding at all aggressively.

    I have been riding for >20 years in all conditions, raced on dirt and tarmac and ridden much more powerful bikes...
    Bike was set in 'road' mode for traction control etc, road was dry in and good condition, have taken the same corner hundreds of times before faster on my previous bike.

    While I don't expect TC to fix every issue it seems like it must have pretty much done nothing to help me here or maybe even made it worse?

    Anyone else have similar issues? I am wondering if there is something wrong with the bike... I am willing to accept some rider error but if TC didn't help me here not sure what is the point of it...
    #1
  2. braaap!

    braaap! Long timer Supporter

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    Well that just royally sucks! I feel your (clavicle) pain... Can't shed any light on why your TC failed you. Black cat / Ladder / Murphy's Law perhaps?
    #2
  3. scfrank

    scfrank Old farts riding club. Supporter

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    In 7000 miles never experienced anything like that. Sounds like something extraneous. Either with the bike or road condition. Stock tires? Obviously lost traction for some reason.

    Heal well.
    #3
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  4. Gone Troppo

    Gone Troppo Somewhat bemused observer Supporter

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    Oil on the road, perhaps?
    #4
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  5. AdvRonski

    AdvRonski They call me......Ronski

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    Are you certain the MTC was on? In street mode, it can be turned off. Just a thought, I put mine in Rally mode on day 1, and have never taken it out of it.
    #5
  6. braaap!

    braaap! Long timer Supporter

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    I've done the same on occassions... afterward, I've had to ask my laundry to use more soap on my shorts... They responded by saying, use less 'rally mode'


    :)
    #6
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  7. windblown101

    windblown101 Long timer Supporter

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    I haven't broken the rear loose in a high traction environment on my 790ADVR so can't comment on how well TC works there. I have found I can intentionally break the rear end loose some on medium traction surfaces even with it set to "9" (highest intervention level), and in real snotty slick conditions the bike can still swap ends just like any other bike with a handful of throttle.

    I can't help but think something on the road surface (or on the tire) bit you. Since you've raced you've undoubtably know how slick even dried anti-freeze can be. Even if traction control was off or somehow not working if you weren't riding like you had sticky sportbike tires on and it was a familiar corner something had to cause the tire to come unglued TC or not. The stock tires aren't bad on dry clean pavement. Based on how they acted in the rain I'd say anything slippery they may have run across turns them into a slip and slide.
    #7
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  8. InconelWolf

    InconelWolf Adventurer

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    Thanks for the responses. Just confirmed MTC and ABS still 'on' and in 'road' mode. Basically I had left the bike as it came from the factory since it was so new, hadn't started experimenting yet.
    #8
  9. InconelWolf

    InconelWolf Adventurer

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    Also I have been back to the scene and couldn't find any evidence of oil or other road surface issues where it happened...
    #9
  10. braaap!

    braaap! Long timer Supporter

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    Was a Poltergeist then! An event like that doesn't foster confidence in a new bike which is touted to have 'ass' saving rider aids...

    Heal well! (have broken both collar bones - rode the 950Adv 30kms back home after doing my RHS a few years back whilst the endorphins played nice).

    Might pay to have your Dealer interrogate the bike to ensure all electrickery parameters are per Factory... Excorcise - Build Date - Friday the 13th - 2019.
    #10
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  11. TrailTrauma

    TrailTrauma Nemophilist

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    That was my initial suspect variable. You're more seasoned a rider than I, and I kinda doubt this may have happened but I'll mention it anyway in case. . .

    On an outing on my HOG, I was on the hwy and was doing a left onto an exit. Right about at the apex I instantly started into a lowside. I got lucky, and in the next instant the bike sprang back up to vertical. I had no idea what had happened to loose traction so dramatically for a split second. That is until the trip back out of that area .. while sitting at that light adjacent to where I had almost lost it, I looked over to see a rubbermaid type garbage can lid in the middle of the lane; grey and blending well with the road. To be honest I doubt I scanned the entire bike path as I came into the turn. I hit it hot, and quickly transitioned my focus well down into the curve, overlooking the glaring anomaly sitting in the middle of the lane. I guess my 280 hit the lid, and the lid began to slide until my tire drove off the lid .. just in time to avoid the low side. FM. That took a few yrs off...
    #11
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  12. Toddv

    Toddv Long timer

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    I haven't ever had mine lose grip coming out of a corner on pavement and I've pushed it a bit. I did take note that in dirt even at the higher numerically slip settings the bikes response is not instantaneous, there has to be some level of slip before it interviews then it's ontop of it pretty well. Sort of like it needs to be woken up. This compared to my Panigale is much different, that bike is ontop of it instantaneously, even in dirt. It may just be a different level of refinement, not sure. I'm betting something caused the traction loss other than just too much throttle and it just didn't catch it right away. I've been riding way longer than traction control has been around and have never come to fully trust it except maybe on the Ducati after some good bonding time coming out of corners hard and not feeling it interact even though it was telling me it was via the light flickering on some bumpy corners and just being at the limit of traction.

    So I'm thinking it's maybe just not up to the level your used to on the street, but I don't have a lot of seat time on mine yet. I can tell you, it can be a hand full right quick with the rear ABS turned off on pavement. The rear brake is pretty touchy compared to what I'm used to. :)
    #12
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  13. EvilSteve

    EvilSteve Not so evil, not so Steve.

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    I had a similar experience (more easily explained) on my SuperDuke GT. I hit gravel that I hadn't seen with my rear tyre as I was rolling on (not hard) coming out of a corner. The bike was crossed up and nearly threw me off but ended up hopping inside the corner instead and into a ditch. I hit a rock and went over the handle bars breaking my back. Wasn't a serious break thankfully but I was pretty surprised that a few pebbles were enough to overcome the TC on that bike. I have a lot less trust for these systems after that experience. I videoed the scene before I left because I wanted a record of what happened. The road surface was messed up enough and the sun low enough that I just didn't see it, I wasn't riding aggressively at all (I often drag knee on the corner before but faaaaaar from it this time) so was probably going somewhere around 20mph max. I was pretty shocked by the fact that the TC didn't seem to help at all but I guess I just put too much faith in the system.

    In your case, I'd wonder how much time had passed since the accident and when you went back to survey the scene. Having said that, what you explained doesn't sound right at all and I hope you heal up quickly.
    #13
  14. InconelWolf

    InconelWolf Adventurer

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    Thanks all for your replies and well wishes, lots to think about, keep the ideas coming! Going into surgery tomorrow am to get bolted back together so might not be back online for a bit but will keep you posted on any developments on this subject, will definitely get the bike checked out at some point once I am recovered enough.
    #14
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  15. offworlder

    offworlder Been here awhile

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    This :hair. It's literally possible it did "make it worse" as you as a rider are far more in tune with the conditions (both yours and the road/trail) that any external system.
    I've played with the TC, and as such would never trust it. Its consistently delayed (has to be, as it doesnt read your mind, and sh*t happens fast). DONT trust any electronic wizardy. If it saves you - great, but rely only on yourself. My greatest concern about the 790 is not the mechanical reliability, but the electronic intervention.
    We can go over most of the mechanical bits to validate their integrity, but the electronics will always be a black box :becca. I am desperately hoping KTM will see the wisdom in providing a bypass (ie: defeat wiz-bang electronics and allow for base functionality), so if/when the electronics screw up, we can still get back to civilization.
    #15
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  16. Tripped1

    Tripped1 Smoove, Smoove like velvet.

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    One thing is the way the Bosche system works, it controls power applied via the throttleboddies.

    Simple enough.

    However if you manage to spin it up the intertia of the wheel itself is unchanged......take one on wet grass w/street tires, and even in rain mode I very nearly put myself on my ass. Or like @EvilSteve above noted, the traction control can't always save you in cases of things like gravel, because of the tires are rolling on gravel or a bed of little rocks doesn't matter if there is power applied or not, you can going to have a moment.

    My last street incident was going all of 15mph maybe, I felt the front start sliding and tried to throttle it out.....nothing, lost the front and watched the bike slide away into the curb. Turned out I was standing in the middle of a puddle of transmission fluid....I couldn't see it standing in it, but I could feel it under my boots and smell it on the jeans I was wearing.

    Or likewise with my SD-R coming down a VERY VERY tight steep downhill road, going all of thirty-five or so, was passing through some construction and the front hit a patch of gravel that I never did see just as I was coming off of the brakes, bars slammed to the lock as I crossed center then somehow caught and corrected without chucking me off of the side. But it was extremely close, I thought I was going to eat pavement that time for sure.

    I have also noted that the TC will let you leave 25-30 yard long blackies off of the corners (SD-R in sport mode) without you ever noticing it. I was following a buddy on the same bike with the same tires when I noted the behavior......I tailed him 25km through the mountains by those blackies.
    #16
  17. Toddv

    Toddv Long timer

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    There is another thing at work as your coming out of a corner, especially tighter corners where your standing the bike up quicker such as a transition, the effective diameter of the tire increases. The first time I thought about it was after I went to the N. GA mountains and recorded myself, it almost sounded like the bike was bogging a bit as I stood it up but what was really going on was that the engine was being loaded as the effective diameter of the rear tire increased. It's something I didn't pick up on or even think about while riding, I rarely push a bike near it's limits on the street and have never been on a track.

    The effective diameter of the tire is the distance from the contact patch to the axle. When you're leaned way over, the effective diameter is probably a couple inches smaller than when upright, so the inertia of the wheel, tire and engine gives you an extra push when you stand the bike up. Probably not a big factor on an adventure bike as our tires aren't very pointy but is probably a big factor in lean sensitive traction control calculations especially on superbikes.. Probably why they sometimes tell you it's designed to be used with a specific tire because they are different shapes..

    I doubt it has anything to do with the outcome here, just something I thought was interesting that I'd never thought about. Sorry for going off on a tangent.
    #17
  18. ramjet

    ramjet Long timer

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    Sounds like you're getting some screws and plate on the bone. I had the same for my broken collar bone. Had the metal removed a year later. Less chance of more damage to bone and nerve in the area if you ever break it again. You may want to discuss with your surgeon, mine recommended it. Incredibly, opening it up again and removing that apparatus was not painful and healing was super fast. Good luck, heal well!
    #18
  19. oldbrapper

    oldbrapper Adventurer

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    Wish you the best in your healing, just had a plate and 8 pins put in my clavicle 2 weeks ago. Surprisingly not to painful and it is healing quickly, the part that is painful is where they took bone out of my pelvis to graph the clavicle, hope and would not think that you would need the graph. (Mine was follow up from a trials bike accident a year ago today, when I went over a cliff, still don’t remember a thing!)
    #19
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  20. kubcat

    kubcat Been here awhile Supporter

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    Something similar happened to me in the first month except for 2 things; 1) it was in the twisties of an uphill road I knew pretty well, 2) the very brief, lean-angle sensitive ABS induced tank slapper thankfully resulted in a low side. If I was going a bit slower, it might have ended in a high-side as the bike might not have been so far over.

    I'm sure it was road conditions (hot tar and gravel patch in mid-summer) and rider inexperience in my case. Even with your experience, it sounds very similar. No matter what initiated the slide in your case (likely the road and OEM tire interaction), I'm convinced that in both our cases it was the lean angle ABS that snapped the bike back upright.

    I changed my tread to the MotoZ, and pay more attention to the road conditions in the turns, but mostly I dialed my riding back to 6-7/10s as a result and have been fine since then.
    #20