790 Adventure R Suspension Mods

Discussion in 'Parallel World (790/890)' started by windblown101, Jul 5, 2019.

  1. TrailTrauma

    TrailTrauma Nemophilist

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    Rather than wind my shock preload all the way down, and raise the forks, would I be further ahead just ordering another coil from KTM, or do you guys have something in the works I should wait till spring for. No hurry. In good time; I just can't stomach the idea of essentially lowering my 790R and riding a bandaid solution. I'd rather fix it properly. The snow is expected to drop a few flakes tonight, and I suspect there are only a few good weeks of riding left up here, so suspension might become a winter project. So far I haven't come close to bottoming out my forks yet so they might wait, but I'll definitely be in the market for at least a rear spring. You two seem happy switching from the linear spring to a progressive, and since I might not need revalving at my modest level, perhaps I just need a new coil. @Torque maybe I'll PM you to see what you suggest. I don't know if you've said so out loud here, but you sound like you are a purveyor of all things suspension. :D
  2. Vince

    Vince Been here awhile

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    It must have bottomed a far bit, thats some wheel movement. Happy you didnt lose the camera. Great thread this.
  3. coloktmGS

    coloktmGS Been here awhile

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    So looks like springs are 460 mm instead of the dirt bikes at 470 and the damping rod is shorter in the 790 also. I’m guessing that means the cartridge systems are out. Torque, do you have a working “parts shuffle” that your selling at this point with heavier springs for the big guys and some parts to upgrade that a competent home tuner can do?
  4. Torque

    Torque Been here awhile

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    We hope he was bottoming as you have to use it all. The key is he did not feel it bottoming.
    You would have to send me your cartridges for mods and caps so I can set spring pre-load. Had to do some machine work and considerably more for AdvRonski. Then he hit the ground running for fine tuning the design bones that I sent him.
    With his help getting a baseline I can likely nail your set up out of the box. The design works for a very wide range of riders and it needs very little rebound damping because the fork hits really soft.
    Basically what we built is a digressive suspension system. That is why I sometimes cringe when progressive sells product. There is a place for progressive in the shocks currently but very seldom do you need it for a fork, except maybe the 4CS.

    Regarding springs
    Forks I have 457mm 461mm & 465mm springs and more.
    Shocks I have variable rate only with starting rates in kg's at 9.8 - 10 - 10.2 - 10.4 - 10.6 - 10.8
    Ronski is graduating to a 10.
    Regarding that video and the progressive spring. The spring is slowing that rear wheel down as it gets deeper into the stroke. Otherwise he would be bottoming and feeling it. It allows us to take it a bit easier on the shim stacks in the shock as well. So it provides the needed progression, keeps the shock cooler, is more compliant in the small chatter.
    We are the only ones for years running a progressive spring in EnduroCross on a linkage bike. Yes on linkage bikes. We just put one on Kepples Husky last week as we finalize our settings for the next race. Had to get them made. Our next conversation went like this. Noah; I don't know why I ran this bike without this spring at all. It is so much faster in the Matrix and it is so much better all around. On my website look at the video at EnduroCross. That one is linkage GasGas with KYB suspension and a progressive spring. Look at the landing. Noah rode Haakers bike couple weeks ago and asked him if he ever tried to use a progressive spring. He had but felt a noticeable point where the spring ramped up too quickly or stepped and it was unsettling. Many off the shelf springs do that, very light for an inch and then go to full rate.
    We will all deny the above conversation ever happened as I just made it up, I never got permission to divulge this conversation. I do not want to step on toes.
    Back to work
    Have a great day!
    Fabricator and AdvRonski like this.
  5. Torque

    Torque Been here awhile

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    Ok guys since we are almost done with the 790R suspension mods, time to put our money where our mouth is. Many of you have been very supportive. Obviously this was a successful endeavor. The oem suspension with standard travel is performing at a very high level, thanks to AdvRonski. The forks are involved, and absolutely one of a kind exclusive regarding the design, not a build the average person would have the hardware or tools to do.
    But the goal was to benefit all, so the shock is where we are willing to share our expertise.
    How do we benefit the community without shooting ourselves in the foot.
    It is maddening when you go through the time and expense as a tuner and then you find the identical design in suspension from another tuner. That is the reason the Gold Valve was invented. Theft!
    So how do we all benefit.
    1. When I do the mods, you already have a birds eye view of what your suspension can and will be.
    2. For those that want to do DIY shock improvements we are here to help. We now have a handle on what works and what does not on your 790R shock.
    So for the next month or two AdvRonski and I when available will guide you towards shock happiness. We will be conversing in private emails to assure your getting our best info.
    Please be respectful and not post stacks in public unless it is your build. We may pm, we may even talk on the phone and it may take a going in and out of your shock a few times to reach total bliss.
    I know AdvRonski is smiling ear to ear when he rides his bike. He earned it!

    AdvRonski is never satisfied. He is a picky customer for sure, and that makes for really good stuff. So when the rear spring is settled that finishes up this build. I think.
    Several times he has mentioned additional travel. additional travel, additional travel and then he mentioned additional travel.
    So I guess the next venture is additional travel. This will require not only components but different valving and lots of money as well. It will be a month or two but stay tuned for more fun!
    Even though AdvRonski really does not need me, hopefully, he is willing to partner up again :)
    And in the name of being humble, the new set up will be capable of winning Dakar with suspension as good or better than is on the podium.
    You would be surprised, if you heard the rumblings at the top of the field.
  6. kzeb

    kzeb Been here quite some time

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    Hmmm...
    Have this thread become a vendor thread now ?
    Then I sure have lost my interest here.
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  7. Torque

    Torque Been here awhile

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    Sorry your are correct, will stop.
    Will concentrate on helping the DIY guys.
  8. SoilSampleDave

    SoilSampleDave Dr. Zaius was right!

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    It may bother you, but it sure as hell doesn’t bother me. I have learned a lot by following along. Torque - please do not clam up!
  9. kaertner

    kaertner Long timer

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    Yep, it doesn't take very long for the vultures to descend after circling for a while.
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  10. SoilSampleDave

    SoilSampleDave Dr. Zaius was right!

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    You ladies sure have some thin skin. I hope you don’t drive off the people that are sharing their knowledge here.
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  11. kaertner

    kaertner Long timer

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    You naïve people sure provide fodder for these 'companies'. I hope you don't waste your money by falling for all of the fancy spam that predictably appears on here.
  12. SoilSampleDave

    SoilSampleDave Dr. Zaius was right!

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    I am prepared to face the peril.
  13. AdvRonski

    AdvRonski They call me......Ronski

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    Wow. Not sure who pissed in your Cheerios this morning, but if you aren’t interested in 790 suspension mods, then don’t come here. If you are looking for improved suspension, then that requires professional expertise. @Torque and I are offering help to those who want to start the process themselves, simple as that.
  14. kzeb

    kzeb Been here quite some time

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    It's all cool with me I just wanted to know,
    and was only speaking my mind on the matter and did'nt wanna upset anyone, take it easy chap's.
    You'r knowledge seems very solid and you have been very helpful in letting us understand some of the magic in suspension tuning in which I actually am greatful for !
  15. Torque

    Torque Been here awhile

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    Well thank you Kzeb. I think the reason I come across overbearing and selling so hard is this. When I speak to a high level factory rider (recently) who states his suspension is what it is, I just have a hard time understanding the factories position. I am told the factory is arrogant worse than me. The tuner that is building the riders suspension has to build within parameters the factory supplies.
    Nothing out of the box and the settings available to the "tuner" are the settings the factory has already tested. Even had a current rider that had to argue with them and finally demand on race day a stiffer spring rate. He won! They trusted the chart more than the rider.
    I had a 5 time national champion while training a top ten mx rider during the outdoor season attempt to install our design on the riders bike. Factory shut him down. He told me straight up, the best mouse trap does not always win.
    I want to scream at the top of my lungs! Folks thinking that the pro's suspension is the holy grail. Not!

    That said I will sell less in the future.
    Going testing, have a wonderful day!
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  16. TrailTrauma

    TrailTrauma Nemophilist

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    Personally, I think @AdvRonski & @Torque are a pretty ideal marriage. They both have solid pedigrees and have come together to take our suspensions, and our knowledge of how to tune our own suspensions to the next several levels. We have a window into some pretty high level discussions. The majority of which is cloaked for obvious reasons, but it's clear these two men have the utmost respect for each other. Some may call it naive, but I have little doubt that when it comes to 790 suspensions, this 'team' will produce nothing but world class results. I don't understand why some will naturally run to KTM PP to buy a coil or springs over watching what settles out in this exploration and development and then shop here in a sense. I'm a heftier rider at the weight I'm at, and even shredded I've always been outside the OEM suspension parametres on any bike I've purchased and have always been forced to make that decision - go with KTM parts or tap into the knowledge and expertise of a tuner. I chose to go with the latter.

    But the real joy is having a front row seat to this development. I honestly don't understand valves, shim stacks nor most of the inner workings of suspensions. Thats ok; one day I'll dig into it all, at least at the cerebral level. In the meantime, how awesome is it to have these gentlemen on tap to refer questions to (from the simplest of Q's right on up to post-doctoral level queries)? The insight gleaned here allows me to take my bike through hundreds of loops in an effort to understand how an adjustment here or there manifests in my bikes steering, or handling etc.

    Bluntness can intimidate the weak, but will definitely also motivate the strong. I love a good ego, when I can sense it comes from a solid place of real world-proven confidence. If you have such a passion in the work you do, you'll easily recognize it. And honestly if I worked my ass off in the trenches, either tuning or racing, I'd have just as much passion, and I'd be just as willing to not only share that knowledge and insight, but also pimp my wares. Some call it a funnelling. Call it what you might, but you don't have to lurk only to trash talk, you can simply move on. As I see it, our resident experts are developing a following here for good reasons. And when the time comes to upgrade, the PM's will begin flying.

    Cheers to @Torque & @AdvRonski for putting in all the heavy lifting on our behalf. :beer
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  17. TrailTrauma

    TrailTrauma Nemophilist

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    Is it just my failing eyes, or do my fork tubes seem at slightly different heights? Never taken a really close look until today, and no matter the angle I look from or photograph from the compression side looks higher. Is this possible? I'd think something would bind down below. I never mounted the MotoZ. The dealer did. I wonder if they had a bit of a push to slide the axle through...The reason I looked was because I am thinking of raising the tubes up a bit (4mm?) to see if that helps in the turns. I guess I'm curious is such a subtle difference in tube height can manifest in steering geometry etc. I figured it was me, but the bike always has an easier time being thrown into a right turn, and has a harder time initiating into a left turn. That can't be the fork tube heigh discrepancy, can it?

    20191005_154856.jpg 20191005_154918.jpg
  18. AdvRonski

    AdvRonski They call me......Ronski

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    That won't cause any issues, but it would be best to even them up. I use a digital caliper to get them to the same height.
  19. TrailTrauma

    TrailTrauma Nemophilist

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    Thanks. I just threw my digital calipers on to confirm, and yup .. 44.5mm on rebound side, and 45.5mm on compression side. (measured from the bottom of the upper clamp to on top of the thin lip of the upper cap?)

    Can I just loosen the 4 tube clamp bolts and side them up, and even them or do I have to also mess with the axle (loosen that all as well to prevent binding etc)?

    I use the term digital loosely. My battery is dead yet again, so I'm eye balling it. But the difference looks clear. I wonder how common this is.

    20191005_162916.jpg 20191005_162951.jpg
  20. Torque

    Torque Been here awhile

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    Thanks TrailTrauma!
    Use a torque wrench on the lower tube. Over tightened lowers does damage inside the aluminum tubes.