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Discussion in 'Parallel World (790/890)' started by windblown101, Jul 5, 2019.
I’m thinking more like back through the front window with a van and grab what you can!
THANKS again Torque much appreciated wisdom!
Thanks Noyah I'll pm you
I have what could likely be a rudimentary Q. It seems easier to understand what a suspension is doing when it hits a positive (bump, washboard?, whoops) but less so when the bike hits a void from level. So say I'm ripping down a hard packed gravel trail, when the bike hits a square edged hole about 6-10" deep. What is going on in that moment with the forks, and with the shock?
I'm going to try and click my way out of how harsh those holes feel, and even some larger washboard, but want an appreciation of what I'm doing as I go.
For instance, these types of Q's come to mind.
* At speed, travelling from level ground and hitting a hole, does the suspension even have time to extend first?
* Am I looking to soften the edge of these holes by tuning comp or rebound dampening? (see Q above)
The hard edged nature of these holes or some deeper washboard makes me thing I should start with my HS Comp which is probably far too fast. I think I had it @2 turns out last I checked. And I think my shock rebound is @ 15. Forks - comp @ 18, rebound 20. And this reminds me I should set my preload on the shock to it's max of 10.5 (presently @8) out as I must be 170lbs with the gear I wear (both all the Klim, plus thigh pouch, 25 litre back pack & Klim scramble pack). I know I'm wayyyyy outside the outer range for this stock suspension on the 790. I'll address that between now and next season.
Overall things felt great until I started hitting these harsher holes/deeper washboard @ 75-100kmh. Who knows .. maybe what I'm feeling is bottoming out. When a pile of these holes came at me in a row I could feel the rear kangarooing up and down. Very rough, and lacking the control I'd like and definitely not the more plush ride I will eventually have built.
I've noticed you've mentioned turning the pre-load on your shock "out" a few times. I thought it was just a typo. You aren't actually turning your preload out (counter-clockwise) more are you? I would think in your case you'd want to increase pre-load. I think I'm around 4 turns out on pre-load and I weigh around 185 lbs with gear. If you're unsure whether you're bottoming the forks or not you might want to slap a zip-tie on one of the fork legs so you can see how much travel you're using.
I'd be tempted to think you're running into trouble due to the light springs for your weight and soft damping settings. Have you tried increasing preload on the forks to get them to ride a bit higher in the stroke?
I personally don't think you can tune the stock suspension to be compliant on square edge holes, which is why I started on my journey with @Torque, to develop something I could really be happy with. I feel the stock valving is just way too harsh, no matter what I did. That being said, I would try going with more damping all the way around. That might not sound right, but at a certain point, trying to get more plushness by backing the adjusters out can have the opposite effect on certain kinds of trail junk. It's always a good idea to know how far in is too far, anyway. The adjusters have a fairly wide range, but if you have never tried both ends of that range, then you are lacking some important information.
You're right man, that was a brain fart. Yes, absolutely, I am turning my shock preload in (increasing preload) as my weight dictates. I'm at 8 turns now, with my max being 10.5 , so I'll start increasing it further to my sweet spot. I am very close now, with the bike JUST happy to oversteer IF I let it, which isn't the end of the world. A bit more preload ought to fix that, but I'm happy to have the subtlest of too much turn, than be fighting the bike for more turn if that makes sense.
As for fork preload, no I haven't touched that. The sag was always close as it was so I left it for now. Instead I raised my fork tubes 4mm.
EDIT: You reminded me I had pulled up the OEM fork ring before my last ride to check on how far I was going. Before the last few rides the ring would be sitting at about 5.5" down. After last ride it went as far as 7.25".
Dumb Q: Does the entire lower tube drive into the upper in a bottoming? Just wondering how close I am to bottoming if I'm not. I have ~2.25" left below the red ring.
Thanks. That was my logic for the high values (comfort type settings). I wanted to start there, then look for the cracks and adjust accordingly. Initially I though sport would be the way to go, so I had begun months ago in that range of settings. Once I went to the other extreme, in the comfort settings I realized how seductive a plush ride was, and didn't want to leave lol. But now that I am up a gear on the trails the trail junk is pointing a laser at things that needs re-adjustment. It's the same as when I was taking tight gravel twisties in second at a decent pace, things 'felt' ok; nothing to report. BUT when I upped a gear to 3rd, suddenly it was so f'n obvious the bike was pushing, and didn't want to naturally fall into the turns. This in turn caused me to expend more time and effort dropping in AND coming out of turns that it just exacerbated the issue. At first I blamed myself, and my technique until I was encouraged to take a closer look at the front/rear balance. Once I raised my forks 4mm the change was remarkable. I can come in hard into a turn now, and the bike will effortlessly fall into the turn. This one adjustment created a MUCH safer riding experience. I do my utmost on double track to maintain my position in the right track, no matter what comes along (unless I want to safely skirt something). Prior to addressing the front/rear geometry I would have regularly been blowing through blind curves or been forced to back down my speed.
@AdvRonski , I've decided to carry everything I ride with on my person. So Klim jkt/pnts, boots, helmet, 3L water, tools, thigh pouch, 25L Arcteryx backpack, Klim scramble pak etc, so I'm getting up there in weight. Easily 250-270lbs. I think I'm 215 at least nakkad. Knowing I enjoy a plusher ride, and having ridden several setups back to back what would you suggest I do front/rear to obtain a plush ride, with perhaps a touch more travel? (Did I hear longer travel was in the works?)
Here is a reeeeally boring movie of some of the bread and butter back roads I've been exploring this summer. Not a lot of chop or jumps on this old road. I don't know if it expresses anything about my riding, but figure it might be useful in your answer to how would you approach improving my suspension/ride?
Lets do a chant.
you need springs you need springs, you need springs, louder folks you need springs, you need springs, you need springs, you need springs of coarse when you can afford them. :)
So, for clarity, you suspect there may be a remote chance my springs are too light?
What are the layers of this onion? Springs first, then valving? How does one determine if advanced mods need to be brought in such as your forks you mentioned with static compression, and then bilateral rebound dampening adjusters. And once I've dug into all this, when do I look at longer travel? Is that something which, economically, should be addressed at the same time versus doing springs, then valving, then having to backstep? to add travel? I have no clue how added travel is achieved, and I realize you two are still a few months out on achieving that goal on the 790. Just looking for a general road map to taking my suspension up 1 or 2, 3? levels and some of the economic sense which accompanies those goals.
TT, I'm going to go with @Torque on the spring issue. No point in a revalve until you have a set of springs that are in the ballpark.
In answer to your earlier question, the stock R forks will bottom out with 1 inch/25mm of inner tube showing. So, if your red ring is at 2.25, then you have another 1.25 inches of travel available.
You TrailTrauma are so observant, you got that right out of the chute!
Although we are not working on onions you are coming around :)
You can space the springs for a longer travel bike without replacing them.
So Ron I am surprised you did not trim your spring guides to get that exposed tube at bottoming down to 5mm. In the process gaining 19mm of travel. Allowing you to lighten up further the top of your stroke. Essentially allowing you to have a spot of tea, while traversing abnormalities in the tarmac.
Wait, what?!!! Everyone with an R can add 3/4” of fork travel in this fashion???
Wait, what?!!! Did I say that out loud?
Have not done one on that bike but have in the past. Usually they have about 7mm of chrome showing. Not sure why they did 24.5mm on this bike measured by piston flip AdvRonski. If you do it show us a picture of how. I have actually threaded the unit and screwed a cap on after trimming it down some.
Get busy Ronski-meister; we need to know if this is real or maybe you were into the Corona or the Makers when you measured.
I did trim 5mm off the top of the spring guides, for a gain of a measly 5mm. One problem with trimming the spring guides further is how to do it. Here is a spring guide.
I trimmed 5mm off the hew nut embedded in the top end of the guide. To go further would require somehow heating the plastic enough to separate the aluminum hex from the plastic body, then machining another 15mm or so off the guide, then re-inserting the hex back into the guide, without somehow destroying the whole thing in the process.
The other issue with this is it adds travel at the bottom of the fork's stroke, which means losing some ground clearance when fully bottomed. I would like to add travel at the top of the stroke, which would gain some ground clearance, and balance any rear wheel travel gains.
You could take it off the other end and then machine the larger od part of the guide down so it will go into bottoming cone.
By the way changed my avatar to Hodges. Really nice family!
You bastard. I kept trying to do an 'At Torque' earlier and I kept seeing the wrong avatar .. I want my 20 minutes back.
If I only knew someone with a lathe, who could perform such an intricate operation.
BTW, how is Axel? I heard he crashed pretty hard a while back.
So your putting it right back on me instead of rubbing the guide against the curb until it conforms. Dang!
Axel was back on the bike pretty quick. Like two or three weeks I think my brother said.
Im gonna change my avatar again just to piss TrailTrauma off.
This one is my son at 7 years old getting the holeshot. Hey I am sharing.