790 Adventure R Suspension Mods

Discussion in 'Parallel World (790/890)' started by windblown101, Jul 5, 2019.

  1. new2adv

    new2adv Been here awhile

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    Springs first. Get the sag right. Then play with clickers. If you need more after all that is done, then look at revalving.

    I re-sprung my Husky FE350s, played with the clickers, and was very happy at that point. No revalve needed for me.
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  2. rock_bottom

    rock_bottom Adventurer

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    With my 250 Freeride you can change to the 85 SX spring guide which is about 20mm shorter to get the extra travel. No issues with coil binding.The problem then starts with the wheel impacting on the fender on full compression, and also with the Freeride's steep steering head angle it becomes even steeper and a bit unwieldy (also known as butt clenching) dropping down stepoffs on downhills under hard braking. But it is an easy and cheap solution for extra travel, and there's probably something in the WP catalog which would do the same for the 790R.
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  3. wong321

    wong321 Adventurer

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    Hi Ron don’t know if you remember me but I ran in to you on the Dino mud run, I was on a 1090 and we talked a bit by the gates of lodore. Here’s a video on how to remove those ends, I did this when I lowered my 500 exc.
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  4. ramirin

    ramirin Ready to push

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    The one thing I'm always wondering is that is it honestly only way to get decent suspension to build it separately for each rider? What I mean is that if you build suspension for 80kg (176 lbs) weekend warrior riding trails - why would that not be as good to another same weight rider in similar conditions?

    My problem is that I can't analyze my suspension - I go out with 500exc feels good, 250exc feels good, 690 feels good, freeride feels good, 790 feels good.. you get the point; I don't know what to adjust as I tend to think -it's 20% the bike, 80% the rider' and just try to adjust my riding to different conditions and think I got it somehow wrong if rear bounces on tree crossing etc. Mostly I've been amazed what awfull mistakes that superior xplor (stock exc) suspension has saved when I already closed my eyes and prepared for the worst :uhoh

    And also when going out first hour doing wheelies and flying over stuff the rest of the day sitting down when possible and just trying to survive; how do you minimize the affect of biggest variable (rider) on the equasion to find out if certain things happen because of suspension?

    I know I could get hold of it by taking enough time to test a clicker at time explore the whole range - but that would take whole summer as I tend to spend way too much time on work (but that's fun too). I would rather choose setup from a chart or use same setup that someone my weight has already tested to work on similar riding conditions. I guess I could have 90% of benefits with this system and when not racing for food that should be just perfect for hobbyist.

    Of course if you are former (or current) racer you immediately feel what's wrong and just can't bare with it as you know it could be made better but if you don't know of better how do know anything is wrong?
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  5. TrailTrauma

    TrailTrauma Nemophilist

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    There are variables such as the percentage you ride trails standing/sitting in which you ride hard, if you carry luggage or tools etc on the bike or on your person and how often are you loaded (with gear ha), how much you use your front brake and how aggressively you do etc etc. You can ride the same terrain as a role model, and maybe even at similar average speeds but that doesn't mean the two of you have the same riding style and riding style/technique will likely factor into how a tuner moves you in one direction or another. As a baseline, would a mentor/role model approach work? I think so, as long as I wasn't modelling myself after a desert racer, while I was living in the PNW etc.

    For now @ 215 W/O gear, and carrying/wearing another 35-45 lbs I would be happy starting with springs .. as @Torque chants to me earlier - springs, springs, springs. So I'm going to start there 100% and FINALLY have the bike fitted with springs which can carry my weight, and my gear without eating up so much preload. The I'll spend next season riding loops, while carrying everything I need to tune the forks and shock as I go. And when I come up against some trail crap which isn't pleasant that I don't know how to tweak my way out of I post up in here, and am never disappointed in the help I receive.

    I think what helps also is to listen to high end conversations of guys talking suspension, and why they tweaked what they did as they honed in on their sweet spot. Then find similar chop, or whoops etc and think about what they said and did and try applying that logic to your own experience.

    But everything begins with the proper springs...
  6. ramirin

    ramirin Ready to push

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    That is true and easy to understand. Clickers and valving is the hard part.

    Usual 'message' is that when riding hard setup needs to be stiffer. When I first got the 790 and wen't around 100km/h on gravel with multiple small bumps it felt like it all came straight through. Also I felt I couldn't use the suspension to lift the front and whole bike made me feel like a passenger (could also just be a shock after almost 10years of <150kg thumppers). Then I rolled clickers to 'comfort+' but less than standard and removed all preload on front and set comfort on back. After this I felt more in control, tested slow speed on rocky enduro track and was able to bounce the front side ways with the help of suspension > aiming for full pivot turn someday:jump
    With more speed my biggest problem has been the lack of confidence into these weird tires that don't have knobbies on them, luckily that is already fixed. I have also kept eye on red bands on forks and I haven't bottomed out yet.

    Edit: I have too plans to finally get into these clickers with xplor pro as suspension of a big heavy bike makes a big difference in handling offroad. Those light excs are so good out of the box that I haven't really done anything than checked sag and confirm clickers are somewhat middle of range.
  7. new2adv

    new2adv Been here awhile

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    First step is to get the sag to the right value. This will require changing the springs if you are outside the target weight range (75-85kg) of the stock springs. So if you are lighter, you need lower spring rates. Heavier - you need higher spring rates.

    Once the sag is correct, then do some test riding to get the compression and rebound damping where it needs to be. Ride the same loop repeatedly with different clicker settings until you get it the way you want. The suspension on most modern bikes is good enough that you will be very happy with it once this is done.

    However if you can't get it working the way you want with the right springs + clicker settings, then it's time enlist the help of a suspension-aware riding friend, or take it to a tuner.
  8. Torque

    Torque Been here awhile

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    I agree with you completely. Only item is Ronski just installed the 10.0 variable rate spring and says it is better everywhere including the small chop. 168lbs /76kg. Spring rates make a big difference and the bike is begging for variable rate springs. Ronski's sag numbers were fine with the 9.8 variable but that is sometimes secondary to performance.
  9. new2adv

    new2adv Been here awhile

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    I don’t have any experience with variable rate springs so I can’t really comment, but I’ll take real world test results over book smarts any day...
  10. ramirin

    ramirin Ready to push

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    So sag - no numbers on manual - youtube says 30% of travel for rider sag - this forum says adjust by cornering feel. I am 75kg + gear so should fit into stock spring. Maybe this bike finally forces me to take the time to drive test loops and get it right..
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  11. windblown101

    windblown101 Long timer Supporter

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    @Torque
    Thanks for all the reports and comments you've added to this thread. I had reduced the HS damping on the shock quite a bit looking to smooth it's action in the chop and got a pretty severe hop in the back when launching off stuff afterwards. Your comment about the shock getting too deep in the stoke with too little damping rang a bell so I increased the HS back to a more "standard" adjustment and the bike no longer bucks like it had been after my experiment. I'll be looking forward to hearing you're at a point you feel confident you have the suspension on the 790 pretty well sorted. I may have to ship you my stuff over the winter!
  12. Vargubau

    Vargubau Been here awhile

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    He transformed my Africa Twin, if I could have any input - ease off on shipping Your stuff just be honest on his questioner. Guys from SD(2019 AHRMA champ Josh Sax) questioned me when they saw his sticker on the suspension and I'm in Midwest. The dude is a legend in a San Diego area and was very profesional with the issues I had. Bought an S just few days ago, will send my stuff as soon as the season is over.
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  13. Tripped1

    Tripped1 Smoove, Smoove like velvet.

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    For the most part I hate variable rate springs because they make the suspension react differently in different parts of the stroke. This is something that I have run across on a number (street) Triumphs where I'll set the sag, go putz with it a couple times, and then call my local crack (I mean Ohlins) dealer for regular straight rate boingy bits. That is of course if I can set the sag, I run in the 95-100kg range with gear. Progressive springs screw with the works BECAUSE they are variable, so the damping desired varies by where you are in the stroke, which makes it very frigging tricky to get it "right".

    YMMV, I do know guys that swear by them.

    @Torque 's comment about effectively making regressive rate using variable springs is certainly interesting. But I haven't owned my own actual dirt bike in 20 years, I am trying to wrap my head around why that is desirable.

    I do take my Multistrada on gravel/fire roads, but I don't have to tune the suspension on that one, it has an auto-magic box that basally does it for me, I set the mode it does the rest. With a 17x6 rear (not to mention Ducati parts prices) I am not getting into anything gnarly intentionally.......do ignore the landslide I rode the thing over the first weekend I had it (which is what you get for going out with a bunch of Adventure and GS riders).

    That is one of those counter-intuitive ones.

    High speed damping is what is working when you are talking "hits" landing and/or square edge bumps, low speed is general chop. At least on road bikes you nearly tune out the high speed, a lot of high speed damping makes the bike skip over things and doesn't bestow a lot of confidence (specially on the front).

    On dirt the high speed is your chassis control.
  14. Torque

    Torque Been here awhile

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    I use variable on certain bikes in certain conditions. 75% of my set ups are straight rate. But when done right, there is a definite advantage and sometimes less valving needed. Forks I do not use variable rate as that is where I go digressive.
  15. kzeb

    kzeb Been here quite some time

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    @Noyah Is you'r inbox full, I PM'd you some time ago..
    Cheers
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  16. Snowhite808

    Snowhite808 Been here awhile

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    This is probably fo torque but also for any workshop who has seen them.
    What is wrong with the rear shocks, that they keep blowing?
    And we are now confident, it is not riding or heat soak.
    1100km in sub 20deg celsius with open road riding blew a shock, just like so many. It must be either failed parts or too much nitrogen pressure or bad oil?
  17. Snowhite808

    Snowhite808 Been here awhile

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    Just to make it open and officcial -
    The customer support answer from WP was, that there is no problem present and I can go talk to the dealer if I have a warranty.
    In a sense - this is already admission of guilt and solution must be found some other way.
  18. windblown101

    windblown101 Long timer Supporter

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    As I recall WP does call for a very high pressure on these shocks. Unsure why.
  19. Torque

    Torque Been here awhile

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    The nitrogen pressure is quite high. I think Alex at Konflict would be the go to guy regarding the failures. He has his hand on the pulse as a WP dealer and doing much larger numbers than I.
    Curious as to why you are confident it is not heat? Are casual riders having shocks blow?
    Maybe Alex will chime in when he gets a handle on this.
    AdvRonski has not had a shock issue other than the pre-load adjuster. He has changed his fluid repeatedly and thrashed the shock repeatedly without failure.
    It could be as simple as not enough lubricity in the fluid. I have seen that take seals out in short order with major brand fluid. The high nitrogen level would tighten up that seal on the shaft considerably but the cause? Or a contributor?
    Any wisdom Alex?
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  20. Konflict Motorsports

    Konflict Motorsports TUNER Supporter

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    I've been meaning to chime in on this thread for some time. We have put a ton of time and effort into the 790 Adventure with both OEM components and the Xplor Pro Components and we are just about to go live with our offerings.


    We have seen a vast number of failures, some of our clients/friends have had multiple failures (one has had 4/5 failures in 4500 miles, each time the unit has been addressed by KTM or WP directly). Of the 30 or so we have seen through our shop so far we have seen a multitude of failure points such as scorn shock bodies, piston bushings destroyed, seals folded over, separator piston failures, separator piston o-ring failures as well as a few others items.


    With the variance in build data (reservoir pressure's) as well units we have inspected here in the shop having a variety of build specifications our initial thoughts were that it was a side load issue hence the wear on the shock body in the manner that we have seen. We (and I am sure George will chime in) see a number of shock body failures on WP units, link Husky and KTM's blow through the piston bushes fairly quickly and the tube gets destroyed.

    On the 1090/1290 ADV-R we have seen distorted shock tubes and rebound cap's bent inwards (towards seal head) which in turn flares the bottom of the shock tube out allowing the rebound cap to fall on the bump rubber destroying the bottom of the shock tube. In other words the issues with the 790 is not something new, but the failure point is.


    The shock seal (two-piece seal) is the same that has been used since 2007. We’ve heard rumors of a bad batch of seals, but in our opinion, this is not the case. We’ve heard of and seen products to address the heat coming off the catalytic converter may be a solution. We have tested units with de-cat bikes and OEM and shock temperatures have not fluctuated all that significantly in the testing we have done.

    These units run hot by design, they changed some of the internal components that generate more heat as opposed to previous WP units in the ADV segment. These item changes are to increase certain aspects of the suspension performance.


    At this year’s KTM Adventure Rider Rally in Breckenridge there was in the range of 7-9 failures during the event. It is not isolated only to hardcore enduro type riders, but is also happening to riders who have only ridden pavement, average BDR style riders, very skilled aggressive off-road riders and everything in between.

    An interesting point is that the XPLOR Pro Components are not seeing the failure issues we have seen with the OEM components to our knowledge, therefore the issue is once again isolated.


    Keep in mind the failure points seen have been all over the board, but we feel it is a combination of a few items:

    • With the standard settings these applications come with we are seeing more riders forgoing the installation of proper springs for their height and weight. This drastically alters handling and suspension performance, therefore, if you do not fall within the 165-187 lb. weight rating in full gear you are not seeing the handling characteristics, nor the suspension performance the bike was designed to provide.
    • We have seen a variance in reservoir pressure of both 15 & 16 bar. With these issues we have our thoughts on why the variance exists in both the service manuals and in units we’ve had in hand, but those questions will go unanswered I'm sure.
    • We feel the reason for the failure points have been narrowed down to a few items specifically. We have units in the field testing as I type this, but will not know for certain until the R&D aspect of the fix is confirmed. Dyno testing has proven to not be the end-all in R&D for us so we are doing real word tests with a variety of test subjects in order to put the units through their paces.
    If anyone has any questions in regards to OEM components, OEM components setup or XPLOR Pro Components please feel free to give us a ring at the shop or shoot us a message. We have our stock of springs and items ready to be released here shortly.


    I'm sure I missed a few questions as this thread has gotten pretty detailed, but please feel free to include us in any further conversation regarding the matter.


    All the best,


    Alex M.
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