790 Adventure R Suspension Mods

Discussion in 'Parallel World (790/890)' started by windblown101, Jul 5, 2019.

  1. SoilSampleDave

    SoilSampleDave Dr. Zaius was right!

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    Will you be selling the springs separately? I believe there is no current commercial supplier of progressively wound springs for the 790.
  2. Torque

    Torque Been here awhile

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    Yes they are in stock
  3. Boxerbreath

    Boxerbreath 2017.5 GS Black Storm

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    Watching this thread...
  4. TrailTrauma

    TrailTrauma Nemophilist

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    @Torque what do you suggest a rider do when their front sag is only in the 60's and their rear sag is in the 80's. I added preload to the rear to bring it's sag inline more with the front. My gut says thats not optimal and I've robbed my rear travel a bit by doing so. I'm 225+ geared up. There must be a lot of riders in this boat, so I'm submitting this on behalf of the rest of us gumbys. ;)

    The front was 909mm on the stand, and whether I was seated or standing my front only dipped to 844, for a 65mm front sag.

    The rear is where I added preload which looked like this:
    89mm - no preload added
    87.5mm - 1 turn preload added
    85mm - 2 turns added
    83mm - 3 turns added
    81mm - still 3 turns added, but standing on the bike.

    So in the end I was at an unchangeable 65mm in the front, and I added preload in the rear to achieve 81mm. Should I have kept adding preload? I tried to compromise so I left it at 3 added turns, and an 81mm sag. I'm completely unsure whether I should have kept on it until the rear matched the front sag. That seems like it would be the thing to do to bring both sags to 65mm, but dropping down from the baseline 89mm to 65mm seems like the spring is almost too heavy for me. Does that make sense or am I misreading the situation.

    I'm asking because it looks like you have product in the market, but as a consumer I'm trying to take an educated approach to this and figure out if I can optimally dial in my sags and all the rest of it before I look elsewhere for additional performance.

    Much appreciated.
  5. Torque

    Torque Been here awhile

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    Hi Trail Trauma,
    Limited time but,
    Sag is simply suggestions or starting point and should vary depending on what terrain you are riding, how your loaded, where you tend to ride on your bike etc.
    It is always most accurate to check sag while standing on the pegs, hands by your side, balancing on the balls of your feet. Pain, yes, but you will get most repeatability. Not the same numbers everyone says are correct but this is about "your" performance not a testers performance. So the front is supposed to be in the 60mm range but you have to measure the fork sag with someone pushing down on the forks and letting up slowly so you get the compressed measurement due to stiction. Then while still on bike your helper lifts the bike and lets it down very slowly to get the higher setting / measurement. Average the two for sag.
    So what you are actually trying to do is figure out some good spring rates for you. We do less sag measuring and go directly to the spring to see how much it is compressed. Anyhow spring rate is what your looking for.
    Bottom line you need more rear spring. And we can discuss further for the details. Forks springs are likely needed also as we have to talk about pre-load etc. I spent the weekend at the Baja 400 so I have some jobs pressing. We can talk further later via PM, or I can put together a list of questions to you right here, so others have an idea of what we are looking for when choosing springs.
    TrailTrauma likes this.
  6. SoilSampleDave

    SoilSampleDave Dr. Zaius was right!

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    I hit an exposed rock ledge on a dirt road yesterday about 35-40mph. The forks absorbed it shockingly well, but the rear shot up like one of those rodeo posters where the rear of the bull is straight up in the air :lol3. I guess I better make sure I didn't turn the high speed adjuster in the wrong direction when I fiddled with it when I got the bike!
  7. TrailTrauma

    TrailTrauma Nemophilist

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    Same happened to me on my 300xc when I decided one day to move everything to comfort settings. Way too soft for me and that lack of rebound dampening shot the rear of the bike up like a rocket the moment I slammed over my favourite little rock hop. ha
  8. TrailTrauma

    TrailTrauma Nemophilist

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    @Torque thanks very much for your quick reply. I would love to have everything discussed shared amongst the group. I figure a bunch of us are interested in taking our understanding of simpler suspension tuning to the next level. When your work has slowed down, and you have the time, feel free to list off any questions and I'll do my best to answer them for you so we can all see whats involved.
    Subaruvich likes this.
  9. hgwilliam

    hgwilliam Been here awhile

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    I’ve never had basic suspension work done (revalve, respring, tuning to me/riding style) And I’ve been quoted $800CAD for the work mentioned above. I’m just curious how beneficial it is to have a company tune, revalve, and repsring? Is it obviously noticeable?

    I have an S and I’m weighing the multiple options.

    The best option looks to be holding onto the S for a couple of years then getting R. Makes sense financially and for my life over the next 1-3 years.

    I know it’s a “annoying” question it’s just the one part of a bike I’ve never upgraded.
  10. Torque

    Torque Been here awhile

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    Yes I am biased, but I here it from customers all the time. Big improvement, way smoother.
    How much do you weigh?
    If you are a candidate for springs then you will indeed notice immediate improvement. This is what makes the bike plusher most times and that is what most want.
    The bike is pretty well sprung but your weight tells the tale.
    If the correct springs are in the bike for your weight, leave it till you get the R model.
    My friend and neighbor is buying a 790S and we are going to spring it only as he knows the drill and the improvement that can be had with just springs. He gets it at cost so that says something.
    Regarding a re-valve. Many times in life you get what you pay for. $800 is on the low end of the scale and most times I think most of the improvement is in the springs unless you pull out the stops.
    Then with parts you are looking at closer to $1200 but that is another level and that is usually the guy that wants to pick up his pace and be safe doing it.
  11. hgwilliam

    hgwilliam Been here awhile

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    I appreciate the response. I weigh in at 160lbs so odds are the stock spring is fine.

    This bike is causing me to push the pace more and that’s what I’m trying to get at. It was $800 for tuning, revalving, and respring the forks only. Calculating and adding new shims. They’ll still tune and adjust the rear but not add a new spring as my weight suggests it’s not needed.

    I just find potholes/roots harsh, low speed compression needs improvement, and a little more suspension for getting the bike air-born.

    I’ll probably be going with the deal as I can’t get the R for a couple of years.

    Thank you for your reply though, encouraged me to lean more towards it. I want to try it with a bike one time so why not now!
  12. Torque

    Torque Been here awhile

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    Ok for my customers the general conversation goes something like this.
    How much do you weigh without gear on?
    What percentage of the time off road are you standing? Standing puts more weight forward and you will have lot less rear sag, many even weight the bars.
    When you are standing as your speed increases to high speed, do you lean forward more or back more?
    What terrain do you ride mostly.
    What is your average speed off road if you generally ride one terrain.
    How tall are you? Tall guys are generally going to weight the rear of the bike more.
    Are you a forward rider? In other words same thing I am trying to get to are you weighting the front end for traction.
    Do you have a racing background? If so what class and what type of racing?
    Are you heavy on the front brakes? Going for the same as the racing background. I want to know if your a hammer? or a cruiser?
    Do you get airborne? If so is it from going off a ledge or something or is it from carrying speed over terrain and the bike gets air naturally?
    Percentage of the time you carry bags or not? How much weight.
    Percentage with Passenger?
    That should give an idea. Be as honest as possible for the best result.
    Looking at AdvRonski's video it is pretty obvious he gets air from the speed he is carrying. The G outs he hits are really a suspension challenge and he was hammering them.
  13. TrailTrauma

    TrailTrauma Nemophilist

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    **Note @Torque is speaking in the white font, and I'm replying to him in moss.

    Ok for my customers the general conversation goes something like this.
    How much do you weigh without gear on? 210, but I should be 195 .. I've packed on some ice cream this yr.
    What percentage of the time off road are you standing? 30% due only to neurological symptoms exacerbated when standing. Standing puts more weight forward and you will have lot less rear sag, many even weight the bars.
    When you are standing as your speed increases to high speed, do you lean forward more or back more? I naturally lean forward, but I'm always looking for a neutral position.
    What terrain do you ride mostly. Fast fire roads, old quad type trails of dirt, gravel (loose and packed), dolls heads, bit of sand.
    What is your average speed off road if you generally ride one terrain. 80-100 kmh, but the more open the faster. Closed tighter trail I'll definitely be slower. Speed is my barometer for revealing whether I'm evolving in my technique or not. It's a work in progress I guess. I strive to become much faster versus being someone who enjoys cruising along smelling the roses.
    How tall are you? 5' 10" Tall guys are generally going to weight the rear of the bike more.
    Are you a forward rider? Yes, I try and get over the bars for leverage/weighting. In other words same thing I am trying to get to are you weighting the front end for traction.
    Do you have a racing background? No If so what class and what type of racing?
    Are you heavy on the front brakes? I use the front brakes 90% of the time, probably due to poor technique ha Going for the same as the racing background. I want to know if your a hammer? or a cruiser? I do like ot hammer .. or my own version of hammering.
    Do you get airborne? I'll try and catch air if I see the opportunity. If so is it from going off a ledge or something or is it from carrying speed over terrain and the bike gets air naturally? Bit of both I guess.
    Percentage of the time you carry bags or not? How much weight. Rarely nowadays. I carry a hydration pack (8 lbs), and eventually I'll carry a 25L backpack with overnight cloths, hammock, tools and water. Currently the heaviest thing I carry/wear is probably my Klim badlands pro jkt/pants. That shit weighs a ton!
    Percentage with Passenger? Never

    I definitely don't have a racing background but I have that itch, and try and scratch it as often as possible. I have a hell of a lot to learn but am trying to push my speeds each time out. If I'm on a closed in trail then I'm not in a race generally, but once it opens up speed is my focus. My buddy whom I've only ever begun to pass this past season or 2 now refers to my riding as reckless. lol Words I never thought I'd hear 'that guy' dole out on me. I don't believe my riding or speeds are reckless. They come with real consequences but I try and be proficient and technical in my riding. I don't just go off half cocked, and let the bike carry me along. Mind you I have been known to take my hog down the dirt at 150+ and commute to work @ 200+ for some wack reason. :loco

    That should give an idea. Be as honest as possible for the best result.
    Looking at AdvRonski's video it is pretty obvious he gets air from the speed he is carrying. The G outs he hits are really a suspension challenge and he was hammering them.
  14. Torque

    Torque Been here awhile

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    So with that I would go down the middle regarding spring rates.
    Your not carrying weight. You ride more in the middle of the bike as you stand 30% of the time.
    If you were hitting heavy whoops, Baja type or carrying weight, or were 6'10" we would add rear spring.
    Seems you get most aggressive when the speeds pick up on fire roads.
    There are likely three spring rates that will work for an individual. The above info gets closer to which is better for you. Some tuners go light spring some go heavier springs.
    Some tuners have more damping and some have less and ride the spring more. So we spring to our damping rates. keep that in mind.
    Again back to AdvRonski's bike. 170lbs no gear. We went to .66 fork springs with heavy damping up front. Lots of hold up actually too much, Ron is currently working on that as it will get more plush and more plush because he is currently unable to bottom the forks. Rear shock we have a 9.8/12kg variable. The spring has a very gradual increase in rate instead of a quick increase like the Eibach springs. We are running the shock fairly loose as we want to gobble up the rocks and sharp edges in Colorado. The shock is bottoming on occasion but getting massive traction and very compliant in rocks. So you weigh 40lbs more than Ronski.
    That would generally mean two spring rates higher.
    But if you are doing your aggressive riding on fire roads and moderate on single track / two track I don't think you will need two rates on the forks.
    Are you bottoming the forks currently? If so when? or should I say what type of hit and at what kind of speed.
    Rear I would go 10.2/12 and reduce the pre-load so the spring can move freely at the beginning of the stroke. If you want it on the softer side 10/12.2 you can make it work. I do not go through all the threads so assuming 790R. With the heavier rear spring you will have more adjustability when you start packing weight in your pack.
    Regarding sag numbers many times you get best performance and are not in the proper sag / static sag range. We are trying to ascertain how much the spring is pre-loaded more than anything.
  15. chippertheripper

    chippertheripper motorcycle junkie Supporter

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    Slow the rebound.
  16. TrailTrauma

    TrailTrauma Nemophilist

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    So with that I would go down the middle regarding spring rates.
    Your not carrying weight. You ride more in the middle of the bike as you stand 30% of the time.
    If you were hitting heavy whoops, Baja type or carrying weight, or were 6'10" we would add rear spring.
    Seems you get most aggressive when the speeds pick up on fire roads. Yes, that is an accurate assessment of how I ride right now. Nothing crazy on the trails, but I throttle up as things open up. Not a racer though and no crazy whoops around here. I will strive to increase speed on the trail naturally as my skill improves. So growth, built into my spring rates, will be useful as I improve.

    There are likely three spring rates that will work for an individual. The above info gets closer to which is better for you. Some tuners go light spring some go heavier springs.
    Some tuners have more damping and some have less and ride the spring more. So we spring to our damping rates. keep that in mind.
    Again back to AdvRonski's bike. 170lbs no gear. We went to .66 fork springs with heavy damping up front. Lots of hold up actually too much, Ron is currently working on that as it will get more plush and more plush because he is currently unable to bottom the forks. Rear shock we have a 9.8/12kg variable. The spring has a very gradual increase in rate instead of a quick increase like the Eibach springs. We are running the shock fairly loose as we want to gobble up the rocks and sharp edges in Colorado. The shock is bottoming on occasion but getting massive traction and very compliant in rocks. So you weigh 40lbs more than Ronski.

    So you sound like you might be a lighter spring/heavier dampening type of tuner if I understood the above. Keeping things loose (less preload), and relying on dampening instead to control the suspension versus relying on the spring's weight & dynamics mostly.

    That would generally mean two spring rates higher.
    But if you are doing your aggressive riding on fire roads and moderate on single track / two track I don't think you will need two rates on the forks.
    Are you bottoming the forks currently? If so when? or should I say what type of hit and at what kind of speed. No, I do not believe I have ever bottomed out the forks. I have not added any preload on them, and I am running the dampening as per the manual for 'Sport'.

    Rear I would go 10.2/12 and reduce the pre-load so the spring can move freely at the beginning of the stroke. If you want it on the softer side 10/12.2 you can make it work. I do not go through all the threads so assuming 790R. With the heavier rear spring you will have more adjustability when you start packing weight in your pack. I like the sound of the heavier spring, so that I can ride next season with a loaded pack for ultra-light camping, if that. Mostly it will be 3L water, tools, some clothes, snacks and a hammock. Sounds like this spring will allow me to run lighter with less preload (relying more on dampening?), but then as I add more weight, have room for adding preload.

    Regarding sag numbers many times you get best performance and are not in the proper sag / static sag range. We are trying to ascertain how much the spring is pre-loaded more than anything.

    Knowing I have never bottomed the forks, and that I am very close to the 60 sag mark, and have added no fork preload what does that say about what you would do with the fork springs especially in light of the heavier coil you've suggested? What I'm trying to learn here is balance. This will sound rudimentary but if I go heavier on the coil with as little preload as possible that will raise the rear, no? So how do we achieve a balance between the front and rear suspensions so that we don't end up in a stinkbug attitude? Or is that a non-issue because as you said preload is a focus and you spring to a riders dampening. There is something about this new approach I find confusing still. I'm waiting for a light bulb to go off. I'm getting there, but not quite. :)
  17. Torque

    Torque Been here awhile

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    Damping built depends on bike and terrain. Big bike big damping, because slowing 500lbs down needs it.
    Forks not bottoming, then the only reason to change fork springs is if the front is harsh in the small chop or rocks from too little spring. Then you would go up a rate and maybe lighten preload. Otherwise leave it.
    Or when you start gaining speed and start bottoming then you may need it. The light spring may ride a bit lower in the stroke and you can make up for that by lowering rear or dropping forks in triples.
    At this point it is more about how the bike is steering than sag numbers. If it pushes drop rear. If it blows out of corner raise rear.
    Regarding the variable performance changes AdvRonski is likely the best to get info from. He ran the straight rate and variable rate that were not only similar rates but back to back.
    TrailTrauma likes this.
  18. Brilloman

    Brilloman Been here awhile

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    Mine does the same thing with the Xplor Pro shock. I think I am going to turn the HS compression down a half turn when I get the bike back east.
    SoilSampleDave likes this.
  19. Torque

    Torque Been here awhile

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    Going too deep into the stroke. Either under sprung or under damped. More high speed, or maybe that is what you meant.
    SoilSampleDave likes this.
  20. TrailTrauma

    TrailTrauma Nemophilist

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    I think it's over steering at this point. Plus I have a head shake when the bike is in looser gravel sometimes. This all makes me think at the very least I need to raise the rear back up, by removing some of that preload (3 more turns than stock) I added a month ago when I was trying to balance my front and rear sag numbers somewhat.

    The head shake is new this past week or so. I didn't change anything recently. I have 500km on my new MotoZ desert H/T's, so they're worked in. I'll recheck my head bearing I guess. I was hoping it was the fork tube clamp bolts as 5 of the 8 were found to have loosened yesterday, and were re-torqued but todays ride revealed no improvement.

    Once I begin dialing off my rear spring preload, if I see no change, I'm going to return my dampening setting from Sport to Standard. And then find a way to test things and make informed adjustments. I've found a few flowcharts for doing so, but wanted to ask you if you have your own standardized approach for a guy to use while he dials in his suspension. This is the sort of thing I'm looking for below. I stole it off some motocross forum, and cannot vouch for any of it's efficacy. If you tell me it's BS I'll delete it so no one chases their tail trying it.