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Discussion in 'Parallel World (790/890)' started by windblown101, Jul 5, 2019.
This thread is pure gold
My method always starts with compression. Just like my last post (going too deep into the stroke). You want to use as little rebound as you are comfortable with. Pretty much across the board faster the rider the less rebound they use.
When working with young riders I have there dads have them take a lap. Then close a clicker and take another lap. Then all open the clicker and take another lap. The next time at the track do a different clicker same method. Learn what clickers do!
My dial in I start with the clickers in the middle of the range.
I find a section where I should bottom the bike. Dial in the fork compression so it bottoms lightly. If it is becoming harsh in other terrain back compression out till you have a happy medium.
Shock I would start with high speed and fine tune with low speed. Same drill. More high speed may straighten you in the whoops but might be harsh in the small chop. Open the low speed a bit see if you can plush it out and then if needed back out high speed. It is a balancing act.
So when you have the suspension not going to deep into the stroke without harshness then I adjust rebound. You will need less rebound and are much less likely to pack making it harsh due to rebound.
So when you have the bike working its best with just compression then you want to adjust rebound so the bike steers neutral. No push, no blow out. More rebound holds the fork lower in the stroke longer. Too much rebound you push, not enough you blow out of the corner.
The sag and fork height also affect the same.
1. Spring pre-load MX / Enduro bikes 3 to 10mm depending. Big bike 10mm to 20mm depending.
2. Set sag and fork height by how the bike steers. At Glenn Helen we would run the sag a bit lower in the rear for the massive whoops on the massive down hills. But it needs to steer.
Two races this weekend. Baja 400 50 pro class we came in 10th overall and came in ahead of all the 40 pro class riders. This is the method we used.
Hero Sprint Enduro at Glenn Helen Pro II class. 1st place on a Husky. Noah #636 did not know what sag he was running. Set it till if felt good and ran with it. Sag is a suggested starting point.
Keep in mind any of your forks with compression on one fork and rebound on the other fork will not have near as much clicker adjustment effect. That is just one of the reasons on a high end re-design I install base valves allowing two rebound clickers and two compression clickers. No base valves are simply cheaper for the manufacturer. It is not better in any regard. Although we did use a single function fork in Noah's bike this weekend for Husky as they want us to run Aer. But I am now converting Cone Valve forks by updating the cone valve to my design, just like I do to your open bath forks. We will be running them in the EnduroCross coming up.
Brilliant!! Thank you very much for sharing your process with us. I've copy/pasted it into an email so I have it to reference on the trail.
And congrats on your great finishes last weekend.
You mentioned base valves above - is this something you'll be building for 790 riders? As an overview, what modifications do you have planned for 790 owners looking for some sort of enhancement to the OEM suspension?
The 790R has a large enough cartridge that we are taking the performance above and beyond the cone valve. The base valve will likely be done but I have some other irons in the fire for the KYB right now just getting back from CAD design office a minute ago. The fork AdvRonski is building has full compression and rebound valving in both forks. Top of forks are rebound. No compression adjusters. We have to do that to get the sensitivity and performance with two pistons doing the work instead of one. The forks do have our sprung mid valves as the cone valve does and another system just as advantageous that takes it up a performance notch. AdvRonski will post when it is done. That is why he is already praising it and says he is doing the pace of his ktm 350. To be honest the compression valving when built close to optimum is less important on a 450lb bike. The challenge is slowing that mass down and keeping it compliant with the travel at hand. But it is getting really good and I mean pro racing level good.
That's sounds unreal! Our community thanks you man.
Speaking of fast paced 790 riding, there is a video a few pages back on the 790 thread of a young guy riding at an impressive pace on forest single track. I'll see if I can copy it over into this reply. Your eyes will like see things most of us won't. I think @AdvRonski will appreciate the calibre as well.
Looks like the rear is loose. Going to deep and coming back to fast. Good example. Also AdvRonski was working the suspension considerably harder.
I'd love to see some cam footage from @AdvRonski in his test grounds. I think everyone is starving for some badass 790 footage!
Yep, somehow my high speed adjuster was well over two turns out. I set everything back to standard and will fiddle from there.
Good video, good rider. I have been trying to recall what the stock suspension felt like, as the mods that @Torque and I have been working on are soooo good, the stock experience is receding further from my memory. Watching the 790 pogo over the logs brings it back, though. Not fun. I did post some videos back on page 4 of this thread, but they look kind of bland to me. The helmet-mounted camera really flattens out the whoops, and around here there are a lot of whoops. Maybe I'll give it another shot at some point.
I rode over to Moab this week, and did the White Rim Trail. The surface of the WRT has a lot of embedded rocks, and long stretches of rough bedrock, so it's a good workout for suspension components. The level of isolation this setup provides is impressive, and really encourages going fast. Way faster than the ridiculous 15 mph speed limit on the trail. Thankfully, I didn't see any Park rangers out there, although I've always gotten good vibes from the ones I have seen. We are still working on getting a little more compliance from the forks, without losing any of it's incredible ability to take the big hits with a yawn and a shrug. This bike is just way too much fun!
Looking for a bit of advice. I've got my suspension setting thus:
* Fork comp = 15
* For rebound = 18
* Shock rebound = 20 (this is erroneous. Upon rechecking, this was at 15)
* Shock LS comp = 20
* Shock HS comp = 1.5
* Shock preload @ OEM 4 turns
I'm 210 lbs. I spent 3 hrs on fast gravel and some double track today. (70-110kmh). No real whoops, just the odd rock in the trail which I merrily slammed into to see how far the red ring would move by the end of the day. Bike on the ground, the ring ended up 5" down, so I probably have a few more inches. I need to find some high speed whoops.
I had the preload @ 7 turns yesterday, and moved it back to 6 and found it oversteered, so I went to 8, then 9 and things seems ok in the gravel twisties @ 70kmh (through the turn). But for shits and giggles I moved it back to 4 after honing in on the suspension setup above. And at that point I didn't note a difference @4 versus @9. I was hoping for a marked difference in the turns, but nope. Makes me think softening up the suspension compensated, and my the shock preload less remarkable?
Today on the faster (90-110) backroads I did note an issue with turning. In particular the bike had trouble initiating turns at speed. It wanted to keep tracking too wide, and not initiate. Once I got it over, and my weight on the outside peg, there were times the bike didn't easily want to straighten up and come out of the turn with ease. It took work to initiate and took work to bring the bike out of some turns.
I'd like to know what I can do so the bike falls into turns at speed more easily without as much work. Since my preload is already @4, should I think about raising the forks? Beyond that I'm not sure what to do. Part of the issue my be that the turns weren't technical so I wasn't braking as I went into them. That may be why I noticed it was hard to initiate compared to tighter turns @70kmh. Those I was braking, which would have shortened the forks, allowing the bike to drop into the turn easier.
I would try this.
Test 1. Same turn over and over even if on flat ground doing an oval with settings you have. Braking even if ever so lightly into the turn so we know you are pushing a bit.
Test 2. same turns with preload tightened all in. Note impression. How does it affect steering? Does the bike hold steady and neutral in the turn?
Test 3 same turns with preload tightened all in and the fork rebound set at 11. How does it affect the steering? Does the bike hold steady and neutral in the turn?
This is bringing the back end up and holding the fork down a bit. This will give you definite direction good or bad.
I do not know the stock shock very well but 20 on rebound seems a bit open. Ktm's norm is 30 or so clicks available so the norm would be in the 15 range. Please give me heads up if that is not the case.
Working with AdvRonski we reduced his forks springs to .66 from .68. Ron is not bottoming the rear shock except in extreme events but wants to try a stiffer rear spring for a bit more hold up or?
168lbs from memory.
So with that you are 40lbs heavier. Forks springs likely to light but your not bottoming them so you can get away with it although not as plush.
The rear spring we know has too much sag. Straight rate spring with 10mm of pre-load with pre-load dial all out your not even in the ball park. What happens when you load some gear?
Now I do have to say if your not going to push the envelope for additional speed then you can keep all as is and do just as you mentioned by moving the forks up and adding preload or visa versa till you get balanced front to rear attitude so it handles to your satisfaction.
Thanks, I'll try these measures. I don't have access to an oval though, so can I rip my usual set of tighter twisties here. 15 turns in a short distance which I am intimately familiar and can push it.
I can check the rebound limit tonight, and report back.
Ok, shock rebound maxes out at 25, so I've put it at 15.
Are any of the XPLOR cartridge solutions from the dirt bikes compatible with the 790 or is this a different XPLOR? IE: Dal Soggio Spheres, MX Tech Lucky, or anything else? Is anyone adapting those cartridges to the 790 fork or is the only options revalve the stock stuff or buy the WP cone valves?
Same cartridges. But you do not have to spend that much money to get world class forks. Re-valve the stock stuff meaning the standard shim stack shuffle gets moderate results. Turning the fork into a cone valve design with mostly oem components will get the same or better performance than the cartridge replacements. Hard to believe as many think Ohlins would be higher performing. Maybe oem they would out perform but with well done mods the oem stuff will out perform the fancy stuff.
Torque, that's been my experience as well, but generally there's more than just a stack shuffle, right? It sure looks like youve had good results here, but wouldn't the ability to adjust high/low/mid speed compression make a difference in a bike that will see as varied conditions as the 790?
Moreover, how much less would the mods you provide cost vs a drop in solution like the MX-Tech lucky system ($980)?
Please also understand, I'm a competent mechanic, but definitely not a suspension tuner. So I'm looking for something that I can do at home or that I will ship out to a pro.
High low mid in the fork?
Off to work will respond later this evening.
there is a shop in north phoenix AZ [ the ride shop ] that will be adapting a KYB / SSS kit for the 790s soon
Since this has evolved into a suspension tuning thread...
1) My ass end kicks like a mule... similar to the guy in the video featured a few pages back where it pogos him onto his front wheel. How do I correct that?
2) I have my suspension set to “Standard” according to manual. Now that my suspension is a few months old and has softened up a bit I wanted to put some more stiffness back into it, so I dialled in the sport settings. In sport I can’t keep the tires on the ground. The front bounces like a basket ball and the rear hops and skips on washboard. On washboard it feels like I’m riding an upside-down teeter totter as it bounces back and forth between tires.
After a couple days I went back to the standard settings and my bike rides like it’s glued to the ground again. Curious if anyone can explain what’s going on so that I can start taking educated guesses about how I need to adjust things?
Do you have the correct springs for your weight