95 R1100 gs left cylinder engine knock

Discussion in 'GS Boxers' started by Mikeyfromgr, Jul 13, 2019.

  1. Mikeyfromgr

    Mikeyfromgr Been here awhile Supporter

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    Under heavy load (especially when cold) there is a wicked knock coming from the left cylinder. Before I open this up and take a look (by the sound I should easily be able to see what's causing the knock) I wonder what your ideas are. Rockers out of adjustment? That's my guess for the moment. What does the collective think?
    #1
  2. Tenacious B

    Tenacious B Been here awhile

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    Is it always there or is it mainly right on startup and when whacking the throttle open abruptly?

    Have you done the left cylinder cam chain tensioner upgrade?
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  3. Mikeyfromgr

    Mikeyfromgr Been here awhile Supporter

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    I have the upgrade but, have not yet installed. Its not just start up. It under heavily load or high rpm
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  4. Jim H

    Jim H Been here awhile Supporter

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    Loose rocker end play is a common source of knock, as is the old style cam chain tensioner. Could also be the old style valve pushrod(s) ball end(s) loose within their aluminum shaft(s). Here are a few videos that discuss this particular potential issue:
    1)
    2)
    #4
  5. Mikeyfromgr

    Mikeyfromgr Been here awhile Supporter

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    Oh shit... I just replaced the clutch cable and the left hand cam chain tensioner. Ran it around just to see how it was. I have determined the cause of my left cylinder noise. The upper rear nut and washer are missing from the stud. MISSING. I did replace this head in a camp ground in sturgis last year and I did retorque the studs 600 miles later.

    Has anyone ever experienced this?! Does anyone have any clue how to find and extract said nut and washer save from splitting the case? I'm supposed to be setting out around the country in two days so I dont have time for that. I do have a parts bike I can grab the appropriate washer and nut off of but, I'm worried that the washer and nut that MUST be somewhere in the engine could cause some serious issues for me while on the road. Ideas here or am I screwed?

    Attached Files:

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  6. Mikeyfromgr

    Mikeyfromgr Been here awhile Supporter

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    I will also not that this cylinder indeed has been leaking a small amount of oil where the cylinder meets the block but, I assumed that was due to being disassembled for a week in the campground waiting on athe head to be shipped. I planned on resealing it about 3k miles into my trip when I stop at a friend's place but, now I see it's because of the missing nut.
    #6
  7. Mikeyfromgr

    Mikeyfromgr Been here awhile Supporter

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    The yellow is the missing nut and washer. The red is another loose nut...

    Attached Files:

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  8. Steve W.

    Steve W. Boxer Pilot

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    Hate to say, but the stud is probably pulling out of the case.
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  9. JimVonBaden

    JimVonBaden "Cool" Aid! Supporter

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    Almost certainly the threads on the case are stripped. Take the nut off the bottom left and put it on the top right, then try to torque it to 20nm, then 90°, then another 90°. My bet is it will not make the initial 20NM.

    The fix is to pull the head and cylinder and install a helicoil.

    Been there:
    [​IMG]
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    #9
  10. Mikeyfromgr

    Mikeyfromgr Been here awhile Supporter

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    I used the nut and washer off of my parts bike. I loosened all of the stud nuts. Tightened them all to 15 ft lbs successfully. I did forget to go an additional 180 deg so I'll pull the cover and remedy that before riding home (I'm wrenching out of a storage unit 15 miles from home). Any idea how much caution I need to throw to the wind to ride her knowing that the nut and washer are SOMEWHERE?
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  11. Mikeyfromgr

    Mikeyfromgr Been here awhile Supporter

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    Update: torqued successfully including the 180° extra UNTIL I heard a 'pop'. I loosened them all and went to retorque. The stud that was missing the nut wont torque now. Shit. Is this something I can ride to indiana from Seattle and deal with the first weekend of August at a tech weekend?
    #11
  12. Mikeyfromgr

    Mikeyfromgr Been here awhile Supporter

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    Well, hopefully I can get it all done in time to hit the Top O' The Rockies Rally but, we'll see... I've already found myself on the side of the road with broken intermediate shaft (m-94 transmission) and a hole in my head between my exhaust valves (both last summer, bothering seperate incidents) so I'm really not looking forward to doing that again. I'm going to fix it correctly before I ride away. Thanks for all of your help folks. Hopefully I'll be back to doing some shake down riding tomorrow.

    Cheers!
    -Mikey

    P.S. I found the missing washer right away under the cam chain guides. The nut must have made it into the sump area so I'll have to do some fishing with a magnet to recover that little ^#&=&

    15631507458546976419390574640956.jpg
    #12
  13. mouthfulloflake

    mouthfulloflake Not afraid

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    Oh wow you had TWO studs pull out? ( that solidifies my thoughts, MORE three bond on the cylinder to case gap, and less than stock recommended torque..)

    I would not worry about the missing nut in the sump more than a few minutes with a magnet

    the screen will prevent it from going anywhere that it might damage.

    just remember you can never start the motorcycle while it is upside down in the future.

    :D
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  14. JimVonBaden

    JimVonBaden "Cool" Aid! Supporter

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    Helicoil it is. You should not sweat doing the full torque though. Maybe consider doing all four case threads.
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  15. Mikeyfromgr

    Mikeyfromgr Been here awhile Supporter

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    Here is the question that I have now... I replaced the head and torqued criss-cross to 15 ft lbs and an additional 180 deg (done 90° at a time with a wrench, no deg meter) at a campground in sturgis bike week last summer. I loosened and retorqued with the same double 90° 600 miles down the road at another campground in the morning when the bike was cold. Is it likely that this is a case of metal fatigue (109,000 HARD miles... I mean HARD) or did i manage to bung it up? What can i learn from this? I mean aside from never having pulled a cylinder or helicoiled a cylinder stud before that is.
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  16. Jim Moore

    Jim Moore Souped-Up Weasel

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    I don't think it matters, but the re-tighten procedure calls for 20 nm, then 180 degrees, instead of 90+90. That being said, you've had a few unusual problems with that bike. Makes me wonder if it was dropped hard on that side, or hydrolocked at one point. have you had it from new?
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  17. JimVonBaden

    JimVonBaden "Cool" Aid! Supporter

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    No, retorquing is required at 600 miles. Though it likely doesn't matter, retorquing is done one bolt at a time, and a full 180°. Not 90/90. I always eyeball the 90 and 180. It isn't going to matter if you are a couple of degrees off. More likely it is just fatigue. Not a big deal, and a heli-coil will fix it.
    #17
  18. Mikeyfromgr

    Mikeyfromgr Been here awhile Supporter

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    I left out that I replaced the head gasket when I installed the new (used) head last summer so the retorque at 600 miles was for the gasket. There were no apparent issues then. The retorque went just fine and all the studs felt the same on the retorque.

    I just want to make sure not to do this again. My first experience with stripping holes was the transmission drain plug on my 77 r100/7. I just jb welded the plug in so as not to loose a summer of riding (it was my first bike and my first summer of riding... I was brand spankin new to wrenching on bikes and didnt use a torque wrench... lesson learned). Luckily I had an input bearing fry out a couple thousand miles later and managed to get a new case AND have my transmission rebuilt in that case with all new bearings for $500 at a tech weekend.
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  19. Mikeyfromgr

    Mikeyfromgr Been here awhile Supporter

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    A brief history of my "Redheaded Step Child":

    When I was 12 I went to BMW of Grand Rapids with my dad to see his new bike come out of the crate and get assembled. He had the bike for ~40,0000. In that time he did drop it while off roading (he was pissed that the bike wasn't as off road capable as his Husqvarna dirt bike so he rode it HARD and took out his frustration on the bike). The sifter landed hard on a rock in second gear which made 2nd gear skip for the next 50,000 miles (going 1st to 3rd/3rd to 1st was the cheap solution to the skip in 2nd gear). After he dropped it munching up the transmission he sold it off cheap.

    I went to a party a year after he sold it and saw it sitting out front. I asked around and found the new owner of the bike. We became fast and close friends to the point that 10 years later this man and his wife have become the closest of all my friends. 5 years ago this friend offered to give me the bike free of cost. I had not ridden a street bike nor had I ridden anything with more than 500 cc's so I didnt want to start with that bike and I passed it up. He gave it to another mutual friend. The original plastic tank sprink a leak in the left lobe (most likely due to being dropped a bunch in addition to the known issues with the plastic used in those tanks).
    This owner ordered a metal tank from a slightly different model (cant recall... 1150? Later model 11gs? Not sure. I know it doesnt fit quite right at the beak.) and promptly rhino lined the damn thing. I just finished my first summer on my 77 r100/7 at this point so I told the owner when he decided to sell it to give me first dibs. It was having starting issues that he couldn't figure out so he sold it to me for what he had paid for the tank and a new rear tire ($380).

    I got the HES replaced and she ran great. I had to rebuild the wire loom for the ignition key very quickly after that as the wires broke. I also rebuilt the throttle bodies using the dan cata kit because of a ticking in the right throttle body then. A year later was when the intermediate shaft snapped in two followed by the hole between the exhaust valves a few months later. 100 miles after I repaid the head the used m-97 that I installed 7,000 miles and two months prior developed the dreaded input bearing cannibalism. I limped her 1,000 to Seattle and started the rebuild of the transmission. After I had the transmission all reassembled and sealed back up I realized I forgot to install the output shaft seal in the rear. I got irritated and just picked up an m-97 with all new seals freshly installed in it that was sitting on a shelf so I'll finish that transmission over the winter and have a spare sitting on my shelf ready to go. I have dropped this beast more than a few times and as such I am on my third set of rear foot pegs. I rate my off road excursions on this bike in zip ties. E.g. the number of zip ties it takes to get me home. (I gave up trying to off road this thing until I have time to take a big bike off roading class). The kick stand also leans this bike way too far over and with the way I treat it like a pack mule when I'm out and about riding and camping cross country ot has fallen in parking lots a few times as well. I'm going to cut it in half, weld nuts to either half of the kickstand and use 5/8"x11 allthread and a couple jam nuts to turn it into an adjustable kick stand before I leave on my next trip. I will not let this bike die due to the history of it. Hence why I had no issues spending $1,000 for a 94 r1100rsa with a spare type 259e motor on the side all for use as spare parts.

    Long story short, I've known every owner and thier riding style since the bike was still in its crate. I have had the bike for 2 1/2 years and almost 30k miles. I am not nice or polite to her at all. I like to hammer on her, I like riding at 121 mph flat out across deserts for hours at a time. I beat the piss out of this bike but, I will do my damnedest to keep her running and bringing me all across the country.

    That concludes my novel. Now to do some research and figure out what EXACTLY I need to buy in order to helicoil these studs. Unless someone feels like saving me the leg work and telling me what threadlocker to use to install the helicoils and what exact helicoil kit I should seek out locally....
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  20. Mikeyfromgr

    Mikeyfromgr Been here awhile Supporter

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    Oh, I also dropped it at low speed in a parking lot over a patch of ice when I just bought it (I had put 12 miles on it at that point). The left cylinder touched down and I had not managed to hit the kill switch so the bike spun and although I had gracefully stepped off the bike and was on my feet the handlebar swung around sweeping me off of my feet. As the doctor explained it when I went off of my feet my knee separated and smashed back together causing the tibial plateau and femoral condolite to smash resulting in fracturing both bones impact style. (You should seen his face when my first question was "how long before I can ride again?") Knee healed up perfectly. Eventually I'll develop early onset arthritis but, I'll cross that bridge when I get there.
    #20