990 engine vibration.

Discussion in 'Dakar champion (950/990)' started by Parx400, Jun 8, 2016.

  1. keener

    keener Speed changes you.

    Joined:
    Feb 24, 2010
    Oddometer:
    2,235
    Location:
    Toronto, Canada
    Back up your map. Load up TuneEcu and add 5% more fuel to cells in L2 table around 1470rpm +/-1 one row and 380 to 420 hpa

    That will make your front richer.

    Don't mind the numbers on my table. I'm running 1190 TB that has higher flowing injectors.

    Load it and idle the bike. No need for 15min idle. You should immediately see a difference. Try your IR temp sensor on the same spot. Forget about measurements too far from the head.

    Clean the header a bit, no caked up mud should be there. Now point the laser to somewhere about 1" from the headers. Do this before and after making the changes to your map. Take measurement when bike is fully warmed up. Let us now what happens.

    So did that ebay TB was exactly the same? If so ,that nukes my initial thought that the front injector was partially clogged.

    Widebands are great investments. PLX had the cheapest last time I checked. [​IMG]

    Edit: have you checked your fuel filter lately? I was reminded of this ready other thread just now. It could be that with less pressure everything got leaner.
    #81
  2. Parx400

    Parx400 Long timer

    Joined:
    Jun 17, 2010
    Oddometer:
    6,871
    Location:
    Sacramento CA
    Yes I have replaced the filters and the pump just to be sure.

    The second set of TB's did the same thing. They were also filthy inside. I don't have a ride planned for a month so I'm going to get the injectors cleaned just so it's off the list. Also going to pull the map sensors, clean the ports and replaced the hoses.


    My windows computer in the shop just died so I'm going to have to find a lap top and reload tuneEcu.
    #82
  3. keener

    keener Speed changes you.

    Joined:
    Feb 24, 2010
    Oddometer:
    2,235
    Location:
    Toronto, Canada
    Try the change I suggested before doing all that work. That will tell you if it's the injector or not.

    I use TuneEcu with my android phone all the time. You can edit and reprogram the MAP with it.
    #83
  4. speedy 1

    speedy 1 Wizard

    Joined:
    Jan 26, 2013
    Oddometer:
    566
    Location:
    Dark Coast Southern Oregon
    Programs, spreadsheets, maps etc. don't suddenly go bad.
    Electromechanical things often do go bad.
    The first Throttle Position Sensor (TPS) that went bad on my bike caused the front cylinder to run so hot that the header glowed a dull red which in turn melted the relay cover and side plastic on the skid plate.
    By Parx400 descriptions changing the maps and ECU has not resolved the problem.
    Before changing the map I'd sure be tempted to freshen up the TPS.
    A weak link in the system that is often overlooked.
    #84
  5. Parx400

    Parx400 Long timer

    Joined:
    Jun 17, 2010
    Oddometer:
    6,871
    Location:
    Sacramento CA
    Ok. I have some other things to order so I will get a new tps. Bike is almost 10 years old so it can't hurt.
    #85
  6. Parx400

    Parx400 Long timer

    Joined:
    Jun 17, 2010
    Oddometer:
    6,871
    Location:
    Sacramento CA

    Do I want to try and make the front richer or the rear? The rear is way hot compared to the front.
    #86
  7. Parx400

    Parx400 Long timer

    Joined:
    Jun 17, 2010
    Oddometer:
    6,871
    Location:
    Sacramento CA

    Also my rear glows red really quick. The front never does. I have never noticed the rear glowing until the last year. I have done pearly of night rides and never noticed in the past. It does not even need to be dark to see it red.

    Only reason I don't think it's the TPS is because I swapped TBs with a set off eBay to see if it was the harness. I have no idea if the bike they came from was running fine. They were off a totaled super duke. I sold them once I realized there was no change.
    #87
  8. keener

    keener Speed changes you.

    Joined:
    Feb 24, 2010
    Oddometer:
    2,235
    Location:
    Toronto, Canada
    Download and save your map before doing anything.

    I must have miss read. I thought it was the front that was hotter.

    Hotter = leaner

    F1 and L1 are for REAR
    F2 and L2 are for FRONT

    So make the front richer in the area i suggested and see if the vibration gets better. If it does, add %2 or so richer until it gets worse. If you use the app, you can't set percentage. But you add by sliding yoir finger up on the screen. Just watch the numbers and add about 100 points at a time. This is just for testing not finally tuning.

    I'd do that before doing anything else. That will tell you if this vibration is indeed an imbalance in AFR. If so, forcing the lean cylinder richer should eliminate the vibration. Aim for similar tempreture +/-50F at the heads. Make sure engine is fully warmed up when reading tempreturs of the headers because ECU adds fuel like a choke during warm up.

    You can load up your old good map that worked before if knowing the issue and pull out the injectors. Clean them, swap them,...check pump pressure, TPS,...

    What I'm suggesting is all software changes. It takes no time to reverse them.
    #88
  9. Parx400

    Parx400 Long timer

    Joined:
    Jun 17, 2010
    Oddometer:
    6,871
    Location:
    Sacramento CA

    Got it. I will try that before I touch anything else.
    #89
  10. boat.man

    boat.man Baller on a budget

    Joined:
    Jun 9, 2006
    Oddometer:
    2,563
    Location:
    Mini Apples
    An easy way to see if your a/f ratio is out of wack is to check the spark plugs. In my bike the front was a nice even brown (normal) and the rear was BLACK and looked like shit. If you don't have a dyno with exhaust gas analyzer then going in and modifying the map is hunting in the dark. IMHO
    #90
    chevtech likes this.
  11. Hoologan

    Hoologan Been here awhile Supporter

    Joined:
    May 19, 2009
    Oddometer:
    387
    Location:
    California
    Bingo. It's not a mapping issue.
    #91
  12. Parx400

    Parx400 Long timer

    Joined:
    Jun 17, 2010
    Oddometer:
    6,871
    Location:
    Sacramento CA
    I added fuel to the rear cylinder and fired up the bike. It might have been a little smoother but it for sure sounded better. I didn't check the temps cause I ran out of time. I will do that next. For comparison I had a friend warm his 990 up and measure the exhaust temps at the same locations. His were equal. not 400 degrees apart.

    I noticed my Map sensors were pretty far off once you are reving the bike. Holding it at 5K they were close to 70 off front each other but pretty equal at idle. The rear was 70 lower than the front. the hoses for the Map sensors are rock hard. Im going to replace and clean those ports out.

    I also bought a better balancing tool I saw Zuber recommend.

    I agree with Hoologan the map is not the problem. Something is making the rear cylinder run leaner.
    #92
  13. Zuber

    Zuber Zoob Supporter

    Joined:
    Sep 28, 2004
    Oddometer:
    5,642
    Location:
    West of the West, Oregon
    I ASSume the map you are running has the O2 sensors turned off? These are looked at by the ECU at idle and cruse. If not, I'd turn them off for tuning. Look at their voltages with the bike not running but warmed up, they should be close.

    Use TuneECU to look at the voltages for the MAP sensors with the bike not running. They should be close in voltage since they are all seeing atmospheric pressure then. If one cylinder is way off, swap it with the Atmos one by the headlight. This will help with balance, a little. The ECU will record the offset if it is consistent. If the hoses are leaking, clogged, bad sensor, then it will not be consistent.

    More MAP sensor - balance the engine at idle with the electronic gauge. Check it at several rpm's. It shouldn't be far off at steady rpm's. I've seen it normally lead/lag at changing throttle a little. Then look at the MAP sensors at the same rpm's and see if they are close. If one suddenly is wacko, then you have a bad sensor/clogged/bad hose.

    The hoses on the MAP sensors are kind of special. Use stiff reinforced vacuum line, make them identical length. Don't try to unscrew the brass fittings on the intake, they'll break easy. If you must, heat them to 200 deg first with a heat gun or torch first to melt the loctite. Clean out the small ports, but don't enlarge them.

    Tight valves on one cylinder will make the mixture/balance off. Tight valves are like running a more radical cam, so it needs more fuel and runs lean. I like running the intakes at the loose end and beyond loose. It will start and idle better, better throttle at low rpms too. Many times only adjusting the valves will bring an unbalanced throttle body back into balance.

    I think your on the right track with mixture. At first I thought you had a bad or loose clutch housing, which will make lots of vibes all the time.
    #93
  14. speedy 1

    speedy 1 Wizard

    Joined:
    Jan 26, 2013
    Oddometer:
    566
    Location:
    Dark Coast Southern Oregon
    I could see a MAP sensor causing the trouble.
    Time to add one to my spares kit.


    edit
    Recently had a MAP sensor go out on my truck. Easy to identify the problem as it showed up on the OBD tool.
    Got me thinking about error codes for the MAP sensor on the 990. A bad one should have been showing a blinking light on the dash. It should flash "09" for rear or "11" for front.
    #94
  15. Parx400

    Parx400 Long timer

    Joined:
    Jun 17, 2010
    Oddometer:
    6,871
    Location:
    Sacramento CA
    Thanks for the tip on the map hose. I was about to use tygon fuel line.
    #95
  16. Dryslick

    Dryslick Been here awhile

    Joined:
    Feb 11, 2011
    Oddometer:
    211
    Location:
    Lake Berkely, Montana
    Any progress, Parx?
    #96
  17. Parx400

    Parx400 Long timer

    Joined:
    Jun 17, 2010
    Oddometer:
    6,871
    Location:
    Sacramento CA
    My kid is sick and I'm super busy at work. Zero time to work on this. Going to try Saturday.
    #97
  18. Dryslick

    Dryslick Been here awhile

    Joined:
    Feb 11, 2011
    Oddometer:
    211
    Location:
    Lake Berkely, Montana
    Sorry to hear that. Life tends to get in the way sometimes. My kids are both grown and moved away. What time I get with them now, I really treasure. They grow up awfully fast.
    #98
    knobbyjoe and mutt550 like this.
  19. Parx400

    Parx400 Long timer

    Joined:
    Jun 17, 2010
    Oddometer:
    6,871
    Location:
    Sacramento CA
    Finally had time to work on this.

    I could not find and good reinforced hose in the small 1/8 size. I swapped the hose and MAP senors front to back and make sure the ports were clean. I ran hoses to have permanent TB sync lines. Bought a twin max. Hooded all this up with Tune ECU.

    Results?

    No change. :(.

    I did find one thing. So the TB's were off by a hair at idle, fine once you give it gas. Getting them perfect had no change. It actually idles better if you unbalance them a little. Turning the adjuster screw in 1/4 of a turn from perfect balance made the bike idle better. If its set perfect the idle is jumpy like one cylinder is tryng to take off.

    I did however notice something. Back when I had this bike dyno'ed factory pro said the bike had a brutal 1-2% rich problem. The bike had a 2-1 on it at the time so there was no way to tell which cylinder it was. He tuned the bike on Tuneecu and put loads of trim on it trying to fix the problem. While the bike ran better at all other RPM/ throttle positions, the 1 rich spot made it really hard to ride slow. I eventually went back to the Hoologan map since it was just rich everywhere down low and masked the problem.

    So, when I had the twin max hooked up, TB's balanced, I can see it goes way out of balance when I give it 1-2% throttle. AS in the dial is going all the way to the other side like one cylinder is not pulling at all . Once you get past that around 3-3500 RPM it cleans up and goes balanced. Still vibrates to red line but the TB;s are balanced and the MAP sensors are pretty close.
    #99
  20. Salzig

    Salzig Long timer

    Joined:
    Oct 17, 2008
    Oddometer:
    1,320
    Location:
    Cremona, Italy
    Your last phrase made me think of the TB linkage.
    Did you check it for wear/free play?