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A lurker in need (F850 vs 790ADV)

Discussion in 'Parallel Universe' started by Trirrad07, Jun 12, 2020.

  1. heatmizr

    heatmizr n00b-tastic

    Joined:
    Jan 5, 2012
    Oddometer:
    765
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    CLT, NC
    "I would not buy a KTM engine made in India after seeing what they allowed with the RC390. The BMW engines made in China are still fairly new. Interested to see how they hold up."

    What information do you have regarding this? Because I too have heard of the 390 being high-strung, and prone to failure, but I assumed it was in the design, not necessarily in the manufacturing standards.
    All these engines are designed in house buy the (premium) brands, and I am certain BMW worked with them to ensure the quality they expected in each unit that comes off the line. IF an engine is built to specification, then it doesn't matter who built it, it will be the same engine. Many premium brands are finding the ability to have finally crafted products made in China by skilled tradesman, it just takes a corporate commitment to do so. I have some high-end American home theater speakers that I installed a few years back, I didn't know until after I installed them they were made in China, but to the specifications and quality standards of the manufacturer. They look & sound excellent.
    Everyone has their experiences and opinions, I'm just saying I think things have evolved in the last 20 years or so... Not everything that comes out of Asia is crap.
    #81
    Trirrad07 and Pch123 like this.
  2. Duitser

    Duitser Been here awhile

    Joined:
    Jun 1, 2019
    Oddometer:
    130
    Location:
    South Africa
    Just the idea of reading
    MADE IN CHINA
    says it all
    #82
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  3. heatmizr

    heatmizr n00b-tastic

    Joined:
    Jan 5, 2012
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    CLT, NC
    Never going to get better, and we are to blame. Greedy shareholders are driving every company to go to ridiculous measures and forego long term security to prop up share prices and next quarter's bottom line, in the quest for unsustainable never ending growth. My observation...

    But hmmm, maybe that's how they infected us with Covid...
    #83
  4. Wveniez

    Wveniez Been here awhile

    Joined:
    Jun 30, 2020
    Oddometer:
    104
    Location:
    Orlando, Florida
    Concerning KTM, they have been making bikes for a while and while they may not be known for their reliability, the RC390 is a whole different beast with blown head gaskets, electrical gremlins, abhorrent valve clearance issues, dry swing arm bushings, and faulty radiator fans. I just can’t attribute all the problems to bad design. They seem to be sorting out these problems on newer models without design changes, so you tell me where the problems came from.

    I have an inherent bias against exported production for premium bikes because I am now paying a premium price for exported labor, the workers of which are being paid substantially below what we would consider minimum wage. It has nothing to do with Asian production, but rather how the workers are treated and paid, regardless of location.

    I’m more than happy to pay more for domestic production, but exported production with the same continual price increases that we were seeing with domestic production is just greedy profit squeezing.
    #84
    shuswap1 likes this.
  5. heatmizr

    heatmizr n00b-tastic

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    Well, as a business KTM's number one priority is to make money, not provide bikes cheaply to us. I wish that weren't the case...
    We can still vote with our Dollars.
    #85
  6. Wveniez

    Wveniez Been here awhile

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    Jun 30, 2020
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    There is making money and being greedy. Exploiting underpaid foreign workers falls into the second category.
    #86
  7. heatmizr

    heatmizr n00b-tastic

    Joined:
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    Do we know KTM is exploiting those workers, or are those jobs that are highly sought after there? I honestly don't know, that's why I'm asking. It's becoming very common practice to outsource production so...
    Unless you are saying that taking a huge profit margin even if those workers are well paid is exploitation...
    #87
  8. SnoDrtRider

    SnoDrtRider I've been lost here before...

    Joined:
    Mar 21, 2006
    Oddometer:
    6,974
    Location:
    South Jersey... Close to the Pines
    KTM is and has always been billed as "Ready to Race" as long as you are willing to maintain a high strung, high maintenance machine they are great and will do everything you ask within your skill set but you need to ask yourself if you are capable of riding at that level and are willing to maintain such a machine at the level required to keep it at it's peak performance and do you really need such a machine at your skill level?
    #88
  9. ShaftEd

    ShaftEd Long timer

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    Location:
    San Diego, CA USA
    The KTM 790 has longer service intervals than the BMW 850. Oil/filter changes and valve inspections. Doesn’t sound “high strung” to me.
    #89
  10. SnoDrtRider

    SnoDrtRider I've been lost here before...

    Joined:
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    They changed then... I don't think extending the oil change intervals is a good thing though. BMW calls for 6,000 miles... I change mine at 3,000 - 3,500 because I can feel a difference in shifting around that mileage.
    #90
  11. slider162

    slider162 Been here awhile

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    Feb 12, 2012
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    Location:
    Madison, WI
    Yeah, KTM dealer up here didn't impress me. They weren't even interested in a trade. They went to some other BMW dealer for a buyback price and then it was less than wholesale. So I'm kind of stuck until I can unload what I have. It is a seller's market until you want to sell something. Even the Chicago BMW dealer is a week between emails and then they just ghosted me on a 2019 F850GS.
    #91
  12. Wveniez

    Wveniez Been here awhile

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    I’ve had that before. If a dealership doesn’t think they can sell it(for instance, an only BMW dealer wouldn’t take my Ninja trade in) then they’ll ask around to other dealerships, but you’ll get an even lower price as compared to a standard trade in, which is already a super low ball.

    Best to just sell it on your own. I’ve had great luck with Facebook marketplace.

    Dealerships are shitty in general. Almost every “premium” dealer I’ve dealt with has been terrible.
    #92
    slider162 likes this.
  13. Drunk_Uncle

    Drunk_Uncle Long timer

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    Dec 26, 2009
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    3,663
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    Boerne, TX
    BMW has had engines produced in China for a long time. If you have an 800cc parallel twin with one turn signal switch, your engine was built in China. We have seen no issues with those engines. In fact the “700” doesn’t burn up stators like the “650” allegedly did. I say that as I have only seen one burned up stator in four years.
    #93
  14. Wveniez

    Wveniez Been here awhile

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    I know the F650GS and the G650GS had an engine made in China. We also know the newer parallel twins are made in China.

    However, I’ve never been. Able to find documentation that the F800GS engine was made in China. From what I’ve read, it was made by Rotax in Austria.

    https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.in.../motoring/road-tests/bmw-f800-475454.html?amp

    If you have anything you can link to say otherwise, I’d love to read it.
    #94
  15. shuswap1

    shuswap1 Long timer

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    Interesting, do you have a confirming source for that info? Not sure what you mean..... "twin with one turn signal switch" This contradicts what others have said and the Made in Austria labeling. I also doubt they deserve credit for the 'ventilated' flywheel.
    My understanding, subject to you confirming a source for your statement is that all parallel twins were made in Austria and the singles have been made in China for some time. I've had disastrous results from Loncin engines and others in generators and pressure washers and would not buy another engine from China, although I know they can produce products that work. The assortment and depth of faults from these engines was incredible.
    #95
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  16. Drunk_Uncle

    Drunk_Uncle Long timer

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    BMW moved production of the K7x engine to china when the turn indicator button went from traditional BMW, one on each handlebar, to the more conventional single switch on the left handlebar. I am a BMW tech and read this a couple years ago in literature from BMW. I can't prove it beyond a reasonable doubt. The K8x is not the first engine produced in china. My F850GSA runs great. Granted I have only put 5500 miles on it so far.

    The K7x engine was originally Rotax like the single cylinder.
    #96
  17. Wveniez

    Wveniez Been here awhile

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    Looks like the turn signals changed with the 2013 update. 2008-2012 bikes have the turn signal controls on both sides.

    I must say, I’m surprised I can find literally nothing about production being moved online, considering the G650 and the F850 are easy to confirm where the engine is made and got a lot of attention about production in China. Multiple places online state it is an Austrian made Rotax engine. If production really did move to China in 2013, I would be amazed if it wasn’t documented anywhere or got any press at all.

    Would still love to see some concrete literature on it, but thanks for your anecdote.
    #97
    shuswap1 likes this.
  18. sharrrrrrad

    sharrrrrrad Adventurer

    Joined:
    Aug 16, 2018
    Oddometer:
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    Dubai, UAE
    Considering buying a used Tiger 800 with less mileage. That would save a lot of money for travel compared to both of these bikes. And for height, 2up travel, tiger 800 ticks those boxes. Unless you are very keen on going for new one.
    #98
    slider162 likes this.
  19. K_K

    K_K Adventurer

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    Mar 27, 2011
    Oddometer:
    82
    Location:
    Norway
    I think more or less every manufacturer have more than a few parts of their car/bike made in countries outside their own. It's not a secret, but it's not a big deal either, hence they don't mentioned it merely because it's so common.

    As for the 750/850 engines, except for the slow start, they have now been in the market for a couple of years, and so far there seem to be few to none issues with the engine.
    The 850 engine, even if up only a few cc, feels much stronger than the 800, especially at the top end. And it pulls even better at the low end as well.

    In my book, I don't care where it's made as long as it works.
    #99
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  20. heatmizr

    heatmizr n00b-tastic

    Joined:
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    "I don't care where it's made as long as it works."
    Amen! Actual track record over biased fears.
    SnoDrtRider likes this.