ADV Routes FKT - Fastest Known Time

Discussion in 'The Perfect Line and Other Riding Myths' started by DirtyDog, Nov 1, 2020.

  1. AwDang

    AwDang Enabler

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    Well you’ve equated an IBA ride is no worse than a time run up the BDR. I disagree
    #81
  2. GravelRider

    GravelRider AKA max384 Supporter

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    No I haven't. You can disagree with your own assertion all you like. It might make it easier for you to just remove me from it entirely though. :deal
    #82
  3. mtech1950

    mtech1950 Been here awhile

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    How bout them dudes that ran 5 miles of hell in 43 minutes?
    #83
  4. benjamin1031

    benjamin1031 Been here awhile

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    I would agree that our decisions do effect others. What we disagree on is the actual scope of influence that one rider riding on the COBDR (which are all public county roads in a vast majority of public land) for example would have to the issue of trail access. Your assertion also suggests that a rider attempting this would have absolutely no regard for others on the trail. I personally do not mind opening up the throttle on stretches of road that are empty and what I deem to be "safe" for my skill level (ie: flat and straight). However, I wouldn't want to intentionally do that past others on the trail in an unsafe manner just because I was pushing for a good time. What you will no doubt counter that with is "Ok, but how about anyone else who tries it." I would not agree with their choice to do the things I listed I would not, but I wouldn't assume that they were going to be a jerk just because they are attempting a good time.

    Now, with all that being said if a group of riders were doing this together I could see where there would be issues with complaints, or if people were doing a run like this every other day throughout the short season you can actually run the full COBDR there would be complaints and pitchforks as well. The reality though, is that no one has ever really done this. My guess is that even if one did there would not be more than a handful do it in years. Therefore I think the argument that this sole idea would have an impact on land use or trail access is greatly exaggerated just to discourage others from having or taking a different position than the one you and others have shared.

    Also, I believe there is a vastly different perspective from someone like myself who lives out west where there are vast expanses of empty public land. My solution to effecting others with my riding is, avoid the people all together. Even with a route like the COBDR there is plenty of room to do that.
    #84
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  5. benjamin1031

    benjamin1031 Been here awhile

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    Not at all, what I mean is. Motorcycling is not "safe" by throwing your leg over the bike you have accepted that risk. But, to take that further, IF I decide to speed, change lanes without a turn signal, rob a liquor store, break any law what so ever. In turn I have accepted the risk of what consequences that can become of my decision. I am willing to accept the personal responsibility of my actions.
    #85
  6. flei

    flei cycletherapist

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    That's well-argued and you have some valid points. I'll point out however, this is not a numbers game and that "outliers" stand out. Thus people will be more likely to notice one speeding (or otherwise perceived to be dangerous rider) than they would be to notice a larger number of those riding safely and at a reasonable speed. Which would you be more likely to notice: many quiet motos going by your house or one loud one? And it is possible that the one speeding rider could result in people complaining etc., which could result in consequences for all riders. This is certainly what has happened with land access issues where the very few who rode where they shouldn't resulted in closures that affected everyone.

    I mentioned several times that the situation here in New England is different than out West and I agree that "racing" on established routes there may be less likely to be problematic than here.

    It would be interesting to hear the thoughts of the developers of the BDRs, wouldn't it?
    #86
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  7. HBSURFDAD

    HBSURFDAD Oops, Sorry Supporter

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    Again, you ignore the consequences your actions have on others. Accepting the risk when you get caught versus doing the right thing to begin with, pretty weak.

    If you want to race, do it in an approved manner, not on the street. Encouraging people, even indirectly, to do stupid things can only cause issues for everybody.

    Arguing that riding is dangerous so it is ok to ride like an idiot is a pretty weak argument.

    Screw the guy you hit, it’s his fault for being in your way?
    #87
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  8. Strong Bad

    Strong Bad Former World's Foremost Authority Supporter

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    All of the "wide open" routes like those used for BITD, SCORE, NORRA, and Sonora Rally have problems with getting access to land that allows wide open racing. Even the Dakar had to leave South America because of the access issues. All of these races have speed limits through some sections to help resolve some of these issues.

    Now days access to routes in Baja through some areas are no longer available because people were hauling ass through farms and not closing gates. Routes that used to be open now have new gates that are chained and locked. This is totally due to a lack of respect from people blasting though private property while being ignorant of the consequences of their actions. On the offroad race forums reminders about how "pre-running" is not pre-racing with photos of head on crashes with pre-runners and locals who happen to have the race course as the access roads to where they live and work. The idea is that those trying to learn the race course need to slow down until race day when other who use the route expect high speed traffic.

    Sure, YOU may have enough restraint to not blast by where others are living or camping, but as soon as it become competition, it is doubtful many will be of the same mind.

    To compare something like this to The Cannonball is ignorant at best. The Cannonball is not run on little dirt roads that are a lane and a half wide and where speeding is dangerous to opposing traffic.
    #88
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  9. dirt hokie

    dirt hokie Long timer

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    I am not comparing anything to the Cannon Ball Directly, other then its a timed race from point A to point B that requires participants to break the law and drive unsafely in order have any chance of "winning".
    "Pirate" racing if you will. 4 lane interstate full of cars vs back country dirt roads that are almost empty is probably a wash safety wise. Its not much different then teenagers finding a empty piece of straight country road to drag race.

    Its sounds like you are saying the Cannon Ball would be safer.....while I am saying neither are safey

    I will say a record breaking run on a mostly off-road course will have a lot less chance of running into law enforcement then running 150mph down I95
    #89
  10. Strong Bad

    Strong Bad Former World's Foremost Authority Supporter

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    Easy there skippy, I wasn't calling you on it, it was the individual who brought Cannon Ball up I was referring to. That being said, now that you've made that comment, it sounds like you are in the same boat as the other guy except for all of the wrong reason for doing the Cannon Ball.

    Sounds like you are promoting riding at or near the limits of your ability (as is expected in any race) for an extended period of time on public dirt back roads. Plain and simple, that's fucked up.

    Pirate racing? Well you got one thing right, it is like a bunch of immature teenagers doing stupid shit and who are ignorant of the dangers they place themselves and others in. People start bragging about and promoting competition for how little time it took to do a route and eventually some bozo with a mindset of a 16 year old will get hurt or kill themselves or even worse someone else.

    I have to wonder if you've ever actually raced anything before or done a TAT or CDR.

    It's a really bad idea and there is no fucking way in hell you will be able to convince me otherwise.
    #90
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  11. flei

    flei cycletherapist

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    Maybe this post will make this discussion less abstract and philosophical. We ought to know what an ADV route looks like if we are going to support racing on it. I'd urge those advocating in favor of encouraging speeding on ADV routes through the posting of "fastest known time", to please take a look at this ride report on the NEBDR (posted just yesterday). There are a lot of good photos showing the various terrain and roads this route covers. It's quick and easy to read (one page). And by all accounts it is a very nice route that took a long time to develop.

    The Inmate who posted it does not know I'm referencing it, nor to my knowledge are they aware of this thread, so let's please not shit on their thread to discuss this if you have something to say.

    https://advrider.com/f/threads/nebdr-on-a-drz400-and-klr650.1475473/
    #91
  12. dirt hokie

    dirt hokie Long timer

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    Calm down killer....Reread everything I wrote. We agree..... Those of us not quite as skilled in the written word don't always convey the intent or feeling of a thought. ( talking about myself here) .

    I have raced, and have done a dozens of organized dual sports. My brother and I had plans to do the TAT last summer, but work and Covid screwed that up.
    I did get a 4 day Colorado trip in to ride some of the passes, was awesome, and definitely not a place to race with jeeps, S x S, hikers, atv's lots of other users on narrow roads with cliffs on one side and rock faces on the other.
    #92
  13. windblown101

    windblown101 Long timer Supporter

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    The problem with promoting a FKT deal for off-road/off-pavement routes is that many off-pavement routes are at least "semi" sensitive to abuse and unlike a paved road are much easier to see get shut down or limit access to if locals, law enforcement, etc get tired of folks being assholes on them. In that light, a site promoting "fastest Known times" just seems like a really bad idea.
    #93
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  14. benjamin1031

    benjamin1031 Been here awhile

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    I suppose, though to be fair the roads and trails were there long before it was ever the COBDR (or whichever one we're talking about) the only reason for using those is just due to a common route.

    I guess what this all comes down to (like the cannon ball record which is currently 25hrs 39min FYI lol) is that some think its ok to push the limits and take the risks (and accept the responsibility of said risks) and some do not. Because yes, there are risks like many have shared earlier and a lot of good reasons not to. There are some who would dare push the limits anyways.

    The fact is while those routes are open, unless you plan you use violence your will can not stop those who want to try.
    #94
  15. flei

    flei cycletherapist

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    Sure, people are free to push the limits and take all the risks they want. However, when their risky riding could impact other's (e.g., a route gets shut down due to their behavior) then they are imposing a consequence of their risk-taking on others without them choosing to be a participant.

    Sure, people can drive/ride/race as fast as they want down the street you live on too, right? It's not my street so maybe I have no problem with that; however, maybe you will have a problem with it if you like peace and quiet or have pets, or children, etc..

    Sure, riders are free to ride their bikes off-road anywhere they want, like through closed areas, risking the consequence to themselves of fines, possibly damaging fragile habitat, etc.; and what often happens when they do that is the areas end up closed to everyone.

    Finally, what an individual chooses to do and whether they do it responsibly or not is beyond anyone's control but their own. However, setting up a "contest" that encourages people to do it shifts some of that responsibility to the promoters.
    #95
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  16. benjamin1031

    benjamin1031 Been here awhile

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    promoters or organizers, absolutely!! But if I as a participant post my time just because I’m proud of it. How would that translate to responsibility of another’s actions?

    If I post that I took a drive on a highway and then there is a wreck on said highway I don’t bare any responsibility for that.
    #96
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  17. flei

    flei cycletherapist

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    How about this scenario (which I feel is more apt):

    I drive from GJ to Denver on I70 at high speed and post not that I "drove on a highway" but about how I made it there in 2 hours (avg. roughly 120mph; quite the feat through there to be "proud" of, right?). Someone reads my post, thinks "that's cool!" and attempts to beat my time. They crash and die, or maybe hit and kill someone else, etc..

    I didn't make them do it, right? Should I bear no ethical, moral or legal responsibility for what happened?

    I personally believe I should bear some ethical/moral responsibility. I'm not an attorney, but I wonder if there aren't also legal precedents that would hold me partially responsible (like yelling "Fire!" in a movie theater, or posting threatening remarks online, etc.).

    Again, I think the argument about how appropriate a "FKT thread" is comes down to how much freedom one thinks every individual ought to have versus how much one thinks each individual is also a member of a society.

    Rhetorical question: Why do we have laws and when do you think it is ok to break them?
    #97
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  18. andrewgore

    andrewgore Gôremā

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    Man there is some major comedy here. I'll just assume no one in this thread goes even 1mph over the speed limit...cause well, that's breaking the law. :lol3 Legalities aside...I saw this in racing forum, and to me, I didn't see it as a racing thing, but viewed it in a different light. I personally don't care how long it takes me to complete something. If\when I wanna prove my speed to myself I go race a harescramble or whatever and weep myself to sleep later in the night as my body is battered and bruised. :lol3

    That said, for me, I could see these "FKT" things as a bit of a gauge for how long I'd need to take for a certain route. I've read ride reports of routes taking weeks, or months, which from the outside observer I go....how could it possibly take that long? I get that much of this site is maybe leaning more towards the "slow n smell the roses", but my personal reality is I don't have all the free time in the world to take off, and so when I do, I want to get the best blend of Quality + Quantity with my riding. Basically having a reference point for a "best case scenario" I'd have to budget X amount of time to do a certain route. But I also don't assume that because something has a "FKT", that it requires breaking the law to accomplish that, nor does it mean that I am FORCED to either.
    #98
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  19. AwDang

    AwDang Enabler

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    Thats a good argument, but it’s been said already.
    The info is “out there” you just have to go look for it. Either in trip reports, regional posts, facebook groups. Or last resort....
    published miles / personal daily average miles = number of projected days to complete

    Publishing the times does nothing but feed desires to get your name on the board.
    #99
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  20. FreeTheBeast

    FreeTheBeast BDR ambassador Supporter

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    https://ridebdr.com/ride-respectfully/

    I'll just place this link right here. From a BDR perspective, inconsiderate riding along these public ways is in no way encouraged. In fact, completely the opposite. We have had significant challenges particularly in the Northeast trying to find a suitable route through populated areas and the challenges keep coming. Please be considerate of the work done to create these routes, but more importantly for the people that live on the routes. They have enjoyed those quiet forests for years and now they hear bikes passing through. We as riders can be good neighbors or we can be assholes. I would much rather receive a smile and a wave as I pass through their part of the world rather than a fist shaking in the air.

    Thank you for supporting the mission of BDR.

    Y'all be cool. :jkam