Advanced Rider Assistance Systems

Discussion in 'The Perfect Line and Other Riding Myths' started by pmd2245, Nov 28, 2018.

  1. pmd2245

    pmd2245 n00b

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    Hello everyone,

    As you probably know, motorcycle is the most dangerous way of transportation. It’s time to do something for the riders!

    In this context, I have been working on Advanced Rider Assistance Systems (ARAS) for three years. I did my PhD on that topic. The main idea of my research was to develop systems able to prevent and assist the rider while dangerous riding situations. I got very promising results, especially about a system I called Motorcycle Curve Alert System (MCAS). Here are some videos about the concept.

    I just finished my PhD and I am really motivated to create a startup in that field. Before beginning anything, I would like to collect opinions about such systems.

    I would really appreciate if you could share your experience about what you would like to have in your bike to make your riding experience more safe ? Or at least, what do you think about ARAS?

    Thanks,
    Pm
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  2. AwDang

    AwDang Been here awhile

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    NO!
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  3. Henryarms77

    Henryarms77 Adventurer

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    Neat
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  4. pmd2245

    pmd2245 n00b

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    I know that most of you think those systems are not useful and hate them.
    I am a rider too and I understand that feeling.
    Nevertheless, their effectiveness is undeniable! Take the example of the ABS. Except if you are a professional rider, you cannot do better than the system!
    #4
  5. AwDang

    AwDang Been here awhile

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    :rolleyes:
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  6. Traxx

    Traxx Been here awhile

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    Back off Mommy, I got this.
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  7. flatland964

    flatland964 Been here awhile

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    The technologically is interesting, but I think that real world it wouldn't help. There are three issues that occur to me . First, a motorcycle takes out a small part of a lane and moves within the lane in curves, whether to avoid obstacles or for line choice. Weeding that out to prevent distracting false warnings might not be possible. Second, my impression is that a rider that is going off the road generally knows it is happening. Unlike a car driver that might be not paying attention, I think that with a rider it is usually loss of control, giving up or target fixation, not a lack of awareness that there is a problem. Giving the rider a signal wouldn't help in those situations. Third, it may all happen too fast. By the time the software realizes that there is a problem, weeds out other reasons and gives the rider a warning, it is probably too late. This is very different than, for example, lane assist in a car that can wake a sleeping or non-attentive driver that drifts slowly out of his lane. I am a big fan of technological help (ABS, lean sensitive ABS, traction control, wheelie control, etc. are all good to go in my book), but I don't yet see how this one would work. Some things are just part of the sport.
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  8. Hi-De-Ho

    Hi-De-Ho Mad Scientist Super Supporter

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    I am forced......forced I say......to agree with my colleagues @AwDang .... @Traxx...and @flatland964

    The concept/idea of your safety systems have a place...somewhere..in this world of transportation, but NOT on a two-wheeled motorcycle.
    Sell your idea to Honda, for use in their Neo-Wing, or to Can Am for use on any of their Spyder bikes.

    The principle point of why your ARAS or the MCAS should not be used on a two-wheeled motorcycle is because the human brain should be responsible for making those same decisions, and refining the rider into a much better rider than what the vast majority of riders around this planet have demonstrated themselves to be.

    When YOU, or any newly minted Ph.D. student, take the human factor out of the equation, and remove the need for the rider to make correct decisions, then you have shuttled motorcycle riding into the category that autonomous car manufacturers are trying to do right now, which is allow brain-dead hominids be transported to work, while giving the decision making responsibilities to the A.I.

    "I" was the first, and most vocal contrarian against the use of H.U.D. inside a motorcycle helmet, and startups like Skully Technologies will forever be the bane of seriously experienced riders. Their H.U.D. helmet is a danger to riders, the in-helmet distractions "will" in fact be responsible for more accidents..and deaths...then they will purport to have saved.

    Take this advice from someone that has two Ph.D.s, and an MD.....has ridden a documented Two Million Miles on motorcycles, and ridden bikes on all 7 continents.....when you remove the responsibility for making life and death decisions while riding a motorcycle from the human brain , and give that responsibility to A.I., you will be adding to the death of motorcycle sales, and the lifestyle.
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  9. BetterLateThanNever

    BetterLateThanNever Long timer

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    You're wise. Just make sure to listen to the opinions you don't like, too. I've advised a number of startups, including some you've heard of, and what the failures almost all had in common were great, clever products that were answers to questions nobody was asking. In the end, your money is going to come from humans in all their irrational glory... you have to play to the room, no matter how much smarter you think you are.

    The barrier your idea faces here is that motorcycling is inherently difficult and risky, and that's what makes it attractive... not because it's dangerous, but because it takes skill to avoid dying on one, and the people who have that skill are proud of it. That's why so many riders introduce themselves by first telling you how long they've been doing it. If someone has been riding for 50 years, they must by definition be skilled, or so goes the thinking.

    Everybody draws this line in a different place, but broadly speaking, ideas like yours specifically undercut one of motorcycling's core benefits and its primary source of social capital. Technologies that remove risks from driving a minivan improve the utility of a minivan, but the same technologies applied to a motorcycle remove one of the best things about riding one. Simply put, coming home from a long ride on a bike with no rider aids makes me feel better and seem more badass than doing it on one where it's hard to make a mistake. This is a moving target, as you can tell from previous debates here about ABS and fuel injection, but it's still pretty early days.

    So, me, I'm not excited. If motorcycles became foolproof, I'd either go back to sports cars (why give up the utility of a car if not for more fun?) or get a pilot's licence (which is still a challenge, and would impress my friends). Or, heaven help me, get another horse.
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  10. pmd2245

    pmd2245 n00b

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    I would repeat I am not only a researcher but a rider too. And not one the most assiduous...
    Three years ago I would have say like you. All those systems are bullsh..!

    After three years of research I see the problem in a different way. We want it or not, the road transportation is changing (embedded safety, etc.).
    Let's take again the example of the ABS, now most of the new bikes are equipped with.

    I am not trying to sell something, what I have done about the MCAS is already public. I just want to know if there is a need.
    You speak as a very experienced rider but what about the novice riders?

    You are totally right about the human responsibility but this is another topic I do not want to go into.

    I really appreciate your answers.

    Thanks
    #10
  11. pmd2245

    pmd2245 n00b

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    I guess every people on that forum are passionate by motorcycles and I totally understand that such systems do not have a real success.
    But I keep in mind that there are all this users who ride motorcycles because this is more convenient for them. Maybe this second type of rider would easily accept the ARAS.
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  12. BetterLateThanNever

    BetterLateThanNever Long timer

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    Post 10, and you're already arguing with the customer?

    I wish you luck.
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  13. AwDang

    AwDang Been here awhile

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    We as humans tend to find path of least resistance to our goals. Adding complexity via AI, will alienate those that have invested the time to learn the "tool" while simultaneously nurture those that possibly shouldn't even pick up the tool. This is the inverse of natural selection and the breed (humans) building the best possible organism to survive it's environment. At the rate of AI adoption were on, humans will be supplanted as the dominant species in the next millennia.
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  14. BetterLateThanNever

    BetterLateThanNever Long timer

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    Yeah, maybe. But fortunes have been lost on the assumption that humans are fundamentally rational creatures. Besides which, despite the appalling overuse of the term, true AI is still a decade or more away... and meanwhile, public sentiment towards the corporations that sell us this stuff has never been worse. I wouldn't bet that this is going to be a straight line. I still have a little hope.
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  15. Strong Bad

    Strong Bad Former World's Foremost Authority Supporter

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    Equipment costs are too high and complicated already, but personally I have no need nor want of a system like this anyway. Save it for an autonomous motorcycle.
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  16. CaptCapsize

    CaptCapsize Been here awhile

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    Interesting research. I worked in R&D for about 10 years. Probably 95% of the research never made it into a product development.

    Maybe the best application would be on BMW self driving motorcycle. That way we all could avoid buying one. (sorry cheap shot:lol3)

    Questions I have are, does the system only use camera image detection and inertial navigation to control the bike or just give input to the rider? Does it include road map data for alerting the rider of a decreasing radius curve? I would assume that the bike parameters would have a significant safety margin to make it easy/slow for the rider. What about tire types and wear, friction coefficients, bike weight distribution, pavement condition, type, debris, and effects of rider position? There are a lot of variables to consider.

    Years ago a corporation I worked for developed a military flight control system which utilized Digital Land Mass Altitude data which provides true elevations every two meters around the globe. It included Radar terrain coordination with elevation data. The system would fly the aircraft (pilot: hands off) by following and contouring and altering the flight path at a fixed elevation of say 100ft above ground level. It used the specific aircraft maximum flight parameters. It was the next step above Terrain Following Radar (TFR). Amazing system, and all the pilots absolutely hated it. The flights were described as white knuckle, with everyone using barf bags, even the pilots. It was demonstrated in flight, but never went into production.

    One of my current motorcycles has a "snowflake" warning that turns on then the air temperature is 5 degrees above freezing. The warning useless and ignored, but I like the temperature display.
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  17. Traxx

    Traxx Been here awhile

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    I consider myself a novice. Riding only 2ish years and about 12K miles. I didn't ask for your help and @#$ sure don't want your ARAS system forced upon me by you, the manufacturer nor the gov.
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  18. CopaMundial

    CopaMundial Wow, that broke easy

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    An integrated breathalyzer would prevent more dangerous situations than this.
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  19. AdvNener

    AdvNener Been here awhile

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    Well i bet no one that responded is likely to be a customer ;)
    Btw let's not forget advrider is a big community but represents a very marginal "mindset" of the 2-wheeled user base.
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  20. Snowbird

    Snowbird Cereal Killer

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    If I understand the idea, I don't think I'd want to be warned mid-corner that my path is going to cross the center line or be too close to a car that might be approaching. I make a constant effort to never cross the center line unless I do it to pass illegally. I stay away from the center line to allow for the extra room needed because I'm leaning. So far, the only rider aid I like is traction control which keeps me from going on my ass playing in corners. ABS has gotten better and is nearly a wash for me at present. If you want to make motorcycling safer, I recommend headlights that track into turns and pre-wiring bikes for front and rear cameras if the rider decides to install them.
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