Advanced Rider Training - why don't you take it?

Discussion in 'The Perfect Line and Other Riding Myths' started by outlaws justice, Oct 15, 2014.

  1. outlaws justice

    outlaws justice On the Fringe

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    Instead of tiered licensing, I would rather see the basic class as the requirement for getting a motorcycle permit and then an approved intermediate or advanced class must be taken to get a license. After all in most states you can walk in take a written test and get a permit and be allowed to operate a motorcycle on the road at that point.

    As for studies done, MSF did one a few years back that determined that completion of the BRC did not change fatality rates in riders who took it vs riders who did not. They also determined that riders who did follow up training on their own bikes did have a reduced fatality rate and this was presented at the International motorcycle conference in Florida. The Military also saw a reduction in fatalities ranging from 36% to 64% when riders were required to participate in advanced training on their own bikes. The difference in percentage comes from the different branches having different requirements on what classes and how many were required i.e. the Army and Navy only required Basic and Intermediate level training but the Marine Corp required Basic, Intermediate and Advanced Level Training.
  2. outlaws justice

    outlaws justice On the Fringe

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    Something else to consider is that not all Basic Level Classes are the same or even built on the same philosophy. An example would be the difference between the MSF BRC and the Total Control BRC (Know as the MTC in California)

    While both programs are designed for beginner riders they go about things from a different perspective and design to the program as the goals of the class are not actually the same. I can provide details in the differences but that would be a whole different thread and take away from the discussion of Advanced level Training that was the intent of this thread despite being derailed several times.
  3. Andyvh1959

    Andyvh1959 Cheesehead Klompen Supporter

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    The newest BRC devotes all of the basics from the old BRC, of "this is the clutch, this is the brake, this is the shift sequence" to the e-course the student MUST complete, and pass the study eval before getting on a bike. This is a big improvement over the old BRC, because in class we do talk about street/road skills, visual skills, situational awareness skills, as much as we can in fit into six hours of class time.

    Again, in the US, the BRC is just a beginner class fit into 16 hours. It is structured to be just enough to get a new rider started in riding. Late apexing is a skill to learn once the basic skills are developed. Same for emergency stops from about 20 mph. We have 12 students to work with in about 35 minutes on that specific skill, which is used in subsequent exercises. Again, for beginner riders. Low speeds takes away much of the apprehension for the new riders.

    I do wish the BRC were at least twice the range time it currently is, in two separate sessions, separated by the rider getting at least 500 miles of temp-license experience. The first 16 hours to develop the basic skills, followed by another 16 hour session of developing the next level basic skills, like late apexing, high effort braking from 35 mph, etc. After that 2nd 16 hour session the student would have to pass a more extensive skills test before getting a license. However, in the US most riders don't want to devote that amount of time before even getting their license. Also the cost would be more like $500, still FAR less than England, Germany or Japan.

    Everyone is quickly critical of the BRC, thinking it misses so much or is just a slow speed parking lot class. But until you have actually taught hundreds of groups of new wanna-be riders, you cannot realize the amount of work it takes to safely get a variety of riders (ages 16 to 80+, male and female) from never having moved a running bike to a basic level of riding to survive. Doing that, now for 24 years gives a whole different viewpoint.

    I could easily devote a 10 hour Saturday, even on a parking lot, to work with new riders just on cornering skills. But again, our "I want my license now, for the least $$ possible" market would not support it. Or a program like in England where the rider has to pass a basic course, for a limited license, to eventually get to a mentored multi ride training session to get a fully unlimited motorcycle license, lots of time and $$ to get to ride even a 750.

    https://www.gov.uk/ride-motorcycle-moped/bike-categories-ages-and-licence-requirements
  4. ruin

    ruin Been here awhile

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    There was a thread about this here a few years ago, and one thing that stood out was the fact that young'ns (under 30) were the *2nd* most likely to be in a fatal motorcycle accident; the most likely were above 50 crowd, who would all presumably be on an unrestricted license. The problem (in America) with tiered M/C licensing vs. safety is that rider experience cannot be accurately measured by "number of years riding." Plenty of people in the US have been riding 30 years or more who only ride on the goldylocks summer weekends when it's not too hot, not too cold, not too windy, etc.

    That said, I don't think there is a proven relationship between safety and tiered licensing anyway. You can say that they have fewer fatalities per miles driven in the UK or Europe, but AFAIK no study has been performed to determine if that can be attributed to their licensing system. Personally I find it hard to believe that such a relationship exists, since most of the tiered licensing systems are logically flawed. The number of years you've been licensed and the displacement of your bike are both fairly meaningless statistics when you consider the weekend warriors and the difference in power/weight and hooliganism between 200cc dirt bikes, 600cc RRS, and 900cc+ cruisers.

    You also have to consider if it's a problem worth solving, monetarily. Does it suck that people get hurt and/or die when riding? Sure. Does that mean we must do absolutely everything possible to reduce those statistics, no matter the cost in dollars or liberty? Of course not.
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  5. ruin

    ruin Been here awhile

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    When did this happen? I took a BRC in 2012, after almost 20 years of not riding, and there was no e-course. Of course, I already had a permit and was riding to and from the testing area in the morning, so maybe it was just skipped.
  6. Andyvh1959

    Andyvh1959 Cheesehead Klompen Supporter

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    The new BRC, with the mandatory minimum 3.5 hour $19 e-course before the class/range became mandatory in Wisconsin and many other states by 2014. Back in 2012 it was still the older BRC, where the first 3.5 hours of class time was mostly talk and class exercises about basic controls operation and cycle gear, helmets. boots, etc.

    For a long time MSF instructor like myself I had to go through recertification for the new BRC, and after two tries I made it (didn't do enough prep study, figured I knew it all), but I, like many other old format BRC coaches almost did not make it. The MSF lost a lot of old format coaches to attrition and inability to connect with the new program. As part of the prep, all coach candidates (even me after 20 years in the MSF) had to take the e-course, and there is no way to simply rip through it, nail the answers, get it over. I had to go through the entire 3.5 hour online session just like a newbie student, through every "this is the brake", "how to put on a helmet", etc.
  7. Andyvh1959

    Andyvh1959 Cheesehead Klompen Supporter

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    I agree on all counts. I've seen riders of 20+ years, that ride maybe 500 to 1000 miles per year, more like a "new" rider every year. I've seen riders, who after completing the BRC, bought a new/1st bike, and put 5,000 miles on it in three months, riding in all sorts of weather. The 2nd to me, is the experienced rider. And yes, we don't need to insure everyone and anyone can rider. Some people simply should not ride a bike. Darwinsim still applies and only the strong survive.
  8. Beemer Dood

    Beemer Dood Been here awhile

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    I hardly "condemn[ed]" the BRC. I merely pointed out the limitations of the class. It's meant to turn someone who has never ridden a motorcycle, into someone who can pass the test at the DMV and then start riding a bike on the road. I have no idea why you have assumed that my "recollection" of the course is "one (poor) and second hand recollection." But both of your assumptions are wrong. My "recollection" is FIRST HAND, I took the course last year, and my "recollection" of it is fresh and supported by that of my daughter who also took the course. I've been on a couple of 'graduate rides' with others who have taken the course. Few of them have taken any advanced courses, and riding behind them was downright scary.



    Since I'm pretty sure that you were not there, and I know that I was, I'll have to say that my "recollection" beats your assumption. Some riders in my class did two reps of the emergency stops and a few did four. Most, as i said, did 2-3.



    I was there and you were not. Lane position was NEVER discussed as far as where one should ride to be most visible, and have the best sight lines, except for the previously mentioned one sentence in the booklet that was read by the instructor. There were no "admoni[shments to be thinking about it and other aspects of safe riding ..." The "skill" was NEVER "practice[ed]."



    I agree. Most courses that teach it require that participants have a minimum number of miles behind them, ranging from 500 to 3,000 miles. In conversations with the founder of the course that requires the higher number, he's said that he's going to reduce that number because people with that many miles have, more than likely, developed bad habits, and he wants to get to them before that happens.



    Advanced training was mentioned in my BRC but it was not "strongly promoted." I had a couple of conversations with the instructors after going on a couple of 'graduate rides' with people who had taken the course. Riding behind the graduates on mountain roads was quite an experience. I did not see anyone who had the slightest idea of how to round a corner. They were all over the road, often moving from inside to outside and back again in the same corner. They were not hitting the apex, either early or late, they were 'meandering' within (for the most part) their lane. A couple of times riders went onto the wrong side of the road. The last time I rode with that group, I was the last rider in line, heading down the hill. They were so slow that auto traffic had built up behind the group. They never pulled over to let them by. I finally pulled off, sat in a turn–out for half an hour to let them get well ahead, and then rode down by myself.
  9. Beemer Dood

    Beemer Dood Been here awhile

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    Being that I'm a 'less government is better" guy, I think that such a plan would result in a mess. Government rarely does such things properly, they get tied up in special interests and bureaucracy.



    I alluded to this in my post #811. Thanks for going into it in more detail.



    I'm sure that you know this outlawsjustice, but some may not, the MSF no longer has a presence in California. There was a dispute with the CHP (I think it was) over the curriculum and they refused to put material that the CHP wanted into the class. The CHP took the contract for the BRC to another instruction group.



    I don't think that it would be out of place here but if you decide to start a new thread, please link to it in this one.
  10. Beemer Dood

    Beemer Dood Been here awhile

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    My BRC, taken in March of 2016, did not have an "e–course" segment. It was done in two days, a combination of classroom and range work. There was no "study eval before getting on a bike."



    Well it DOES "miss so much" and it "IS just a slow speed parking lot class" albeit with quite a bit of class time as well. But that's as it should be for its intended purpose. That's not a criticism, just an observation. But I do agree that it takes a huge "amount of work" to get people through it, considering that most have never ridden before.
  11. Beemer Dood

    Beemer Dood Been here awhile

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    I agree that there is a certain degree of 'assumption of risk' of people who ride motorcycles. And I agree that we don't need to do "absolutely everything possible to reduce those statistics ..." But all it will take is for some legislator's kid to get killed or seriously injured while riding. He'll start a campaign to require training "for the children."
  12. Andyvh1959

    Andyvh1959 Cheesehead Klompen Supporter

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    A better way to say it perhaps, is that everyone is critical of the MSF BRC, for it being something it is not. It is not an all encompassing/cover it all kind of beginner rider class. It gets the basics done and hopefully impresses enough riders to go beyond the basic training to later learn more. However, I think those who do go for more training beyond the BRC are (my guess) 15% or less of the licensed riders.

    Beemer Dood. Where did you take the BRC? I see you are in California, and starting in 2014 California opted not to continue the MSF program. Wisconsin was fully integrated to the latest BRC with the e-course requirement by the end of 2015. In fact in many states now if the Rider Coach has not certified to the new BRC that coach can no longer run a MSF sponsored course.

    https://www.msf-usa.org/ecourse.aspx
  13. outlaws justice

    outlaws justice On the Fringe

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    California Did not switch from the BRC until January 2015. And even after that there were a few sites who still offered MSF classes just with no license waiver.
  14. VX Rider

    VX Rider Long timer

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    To clear up some misrepresentation,
    Because of accidents and other statistics pointing upwards CHP wanted more control over the content.
    When put out for bids MSF chose to not submit a bid. The new courses were to commenced Jan 1,2015.


    An interesting aside for me, is here is beeemer dood, a very new rider going on and on about late apexing....as if he had been riding 5+ years. As Spock would say,"fascinating".
  15. ruin

    ruin Been here awhile

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    That's exactly what I was getting at. There are a fair number of people around here for whom even 500 miles a year would be an exaggeration, and even though they've had an endorsement and a bike for the past 30 years, they ride no better than the squids who just barely passed the state's practical exam a week ago on dads shadow before buying their new GSXR.

    That is not "all it will take." It will also take the riding population sitting around and doing nothing in response. I'm sure that's how it will go some places, but not everywhere. Around here, they're going to have to start with a helmet law first, and that's as unlikely to pass as the seatbelt law, which they last tried and failed to pass 8 years ago.
  16. slartidbartfast

    slartidbartfast Life is for good friends and great adventures Supporter

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    This is probably the study I mentioned a few posts back. The difference for new riders in the first few months was significant but after six months (IIRC) the fatality rate became the same.
  17. Beemer Dood

    Beemer Dood Been here awhile

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    If you think that's a "better way to say it" so be it. It's impossible to teach everything that a rider will need at this stage of his development, he won't understand it, and there's just too much information to retain.



    I took it in Los Angeles.
  18. Beemer Dood

    Beemer Dood Been here awhile

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    Another variation of the story is that the MSF refused to accede to the requests of the CHP to include certain material in the classes, and so the CHP went elsewhere looking for someone to teach the classes.



    What's REALLY "fascinating" is VX Rider thinking he knows something that he actually knows nothing about, my riding history. He's made a false assumption based on when I took the BRC, March of last year, that I've only been riding for a very short time. If only he read my post # 759, CLICK HERE. where I wrote this.


    He'd know the facts.


    He might also have gotten the facts if he'd read my post #773, CLICK HERE. where I wrote this,



    Earlier VX Rider seems to have assumed that I was an instructor when he wrote, "If you are selling a course, or trying to you are losinge [sic] ..." He was corrected very quickly on that error, but now he goes in the other direction, assuming that I lack experience, based on when I took the BRC. He's also assumed that there were people involved in the off-topic idiocy (that, thankfully, has passed) who were instructors, he was wrong in this and was again, quickly corrected, but now he AGAIN takes us off topic with a personal attack on me. This time it's not a difference of opinion, but a series of false assumptions he's made.


    He didn't apologize for those earlier errors, so I doubt that he'll do so now either. I really don't care if he does so or not, but I did want to correct the false assertions and statements that he's rather consistently made about me.


    There's also the issue of more than half a dozen questions that he's been asked, but has not answered. Not required of course, but I think it affects his credibility, almost as much as his absurd assumptions and subsequent allegations about me.


    VX Rider I suggest that you concentrate on the topic and not spend so much time worrying about me or my qualifications.
  19. Adventurer.

    Adventurer. Enjoy the Ride

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    I took all three of the free Pennsylvania Motorcycle Safety Program (PA MSP)
    courses offered, including advanced (BRC, BRC2 & ARC).

    Admittedly, I took the initial BRC solely to earn my motorcycle license and for the insurance discount, around 17yrs. ago now, but managed to learn quite a bit in the process. Took the BRC2 exactly for its primary function, of returning me to riding, after an unscheduled and unforeseen break. Then, ultimately took ARC, because its the course I wanted to take in the first place, but certainly had no business doing so, way back in my initial BRC days. Learned from, enjoyed, and recommend completion of all three MSP's.


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  20. VX Rider

    VX Rider Long timer

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    @ Beemer Dood

    IF, is a conditional phrase...

    Given I could not determine what your stake in the discussion was. IF, is not an assumption on my part. It's conditional, so if you were selling classes,THEN my statement would apply to you.

    You aren't, so it doesn't, and therefore no need to apologize.

    As to your riding history, yes I missed , over 50 years... for that here's a small apology for diminishing your plethora of knowledge.
    Carry on.

    I have not answered your questions for two reasons, not to debate you specifically and to stay on topic.

    But if you really want answers, post a list of your questions, if you feel the answers will contribute in any meaningful way to the discussion. Or don't if it's just about a pissing contest.
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