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Africa Eco Race 2020 with Lyndon Poskitt & Team Races 2 Places

Discussion in 'Racing' started by pebble35, Dec 5, 2019.

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  1. vintageveloce

    vintageveloce Been here awhile

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    So if the inspectors miss something the first time, they can never look again? That is not how it works. Ever heard of a post race tear down? The organization may always check the bike again at any time and the rider must always be responsible for the legality of his equipment.
    From the FIM Regulations:
    080.8.3 Technical Inspection during the Event
    During the whole event the FMNR Technical Steward, under the supervision of a Jury Member or the CRT Technical Director, can check any motorcycle. The time spent for this test will be granted to the rider. The rider is responsible at any time of the Rally for the technical conformity of his motorcycle.

    I hope the exact details of what rule was broken and how comes out, without knowing that, it is hard to judge.
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  2. vintageveloce

    vintageveloce Been here awhile

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    I found some detail on the sky website here:
    https://sport.sky.it/motori/2020/01/20/africa-eco-race-poskitt-reclamo-lucci-terzo-posto

    Translated by google:

    The British: "The rules are rules and Paolo used a non-conforming tire". The Tuscan: "I had no advantage, Lyndon stuck to a quibble"

    Paolo Lucci has savored the joy of third place at the Africa Eco Race for just a few hours, because already on Saturday evening Lyndon Poskitt's appeal against him for using a non-standard tire had been accepted, with the Tuscan penalized by a is now relegated to fourth position in the general. The Solarys Team rider arrived at Lago Rosa with all his bitterness: in a race that saw him excel in the number of special wins and for an essentially impeccable conduct, staying at the foot of the podium for a complaint has the flavor of the hoax. The Castiglion Fiorentino rider goes straight to the point when we ask him if he took advantage of the use of a cross tire: "But what an advantage. It is a tire like any other, but in this race Poskitt stuck to everything even to let me have a penalty. He had already tried a few days before, when he contested me for not updating the road book with the missing note. He stuck to a quibble just to get on the podium. "

    Poskitt: "Rules are rules"
    The English driver's reply on the alleged advantage deriving from the use of the tire is not long in coming. The British basically confirms Lucci's version, more in the unspoken words than in the statements made: "It is difficult to say if there could have been an advantage, I don't know how many days he used the rubber, I don't know how much it could have affected. But the rules are the rules and Fim says that the tire must be homologated for road use and that tire was not . If we want to behave like a professional, the rules must apply " .

    Botturi: "Absurd situation"
    Surely the judges could not ignore Poskitt's appeal and could not decide otherwise, but according to the various drivers, team managers and experts, it is equally true that Lucci did not receive any advantage from the solution adopted. Botturi, still soaked with champagne for the party at the foot of the podium, gave a comment that applies to everyone: "I find the situation absurd. It was a rule that most of us ignored . Road homologation does not give any advantage to level of tire performance, and personally I believe that if you want to win you have to try to do it going stronger than your opponents. "

    The analysis
    We would add that if the judges themselves had noticed the irregularity there would have been little to say, but the fact that the report came from those who were in fourth position does not detract from the regularity of the complaint, but it is not much in the much feared " spirit of the rally "which should animate the participants. The British themselves define Poskitt's move as "playing with the rules" - and in our chat with Lyndon the real motivations behind the gesture emerged: "Too many things had gone in his favor in this rally. A few days earlier Paolo had not changed a note as indicated during the briefing and had gained half an hour in the standings. He would never have taken that advantage. And then stage 10 it was shortened, otherwise I would have been able to win it. " It can basically be said that Poskitt is tied to his finger, and the fact that the Englishman is a media character with a certain following has perhaps led the pilot himself to make a choice not as a true gentleman rider in favor of placing at any cost . A pity because - as far as we had seen in the twelve stages of the race - in our opinion Lucci deserved a prize. The Tuscan pushed when he had to, he sailed well - even when he opened the track - he managed himself in difficult moments. Poskitt was yes fast - at times very fast - but he was also deficient in the internships that most asked for the interpretation of the road book, leaving others in the leading group the task of making the right choice.

    The final budget
    The Africa Eco Race 2020 therefore goes into the archive with this controversial tail, which, however, does not detract from a race perhaps even better than last year , with technically demanding specials and a romantic flavor, of great selection in terms of navigation and immersed in unforgettable landscapes. The appointment is for January 2021: who knows, for the disappointed of this edition, there will be no possibility of finding one's revenge on the course.

    IMO: Why was Lucci using an illegal tire, one that was not homologated for road use? I must assume they thought it has some advantage! Pretending it "doesn't make any difference" rings hollow.
  3. SnipTheDog

    SnipTheDog Been here awhile

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    This may have been covered earlier, but is there a reason that the Africa ECO race took place at the same time as Dakar? I watch the Dakar when possible, but other than social media, there didn't seem to be much coverage for the Eco race. I would think that there would be competitors that would run both races if possible.
  4. Mike_MRS

    Mike_MRS Been here awhile

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    I can answer that. Because they are a lot cheaper than the likes of a michelin desert. It gave him no advantage whatsoever. Also Botturi said lots were doing it, so why didn't the orga undertake a wholesale check of the field's tyres? Because they were concerned about negative media coverage.

    The key issue here is that Lucci's bike has been specifically examined by the Poskitt camp with the intention of trying to find a problem to create a penalty to bump him down.
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  5. vintageveloce

    vintageveloce Been here awhile

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    I don't know anything official... but I suspect it all happened when the "Dakar" left Africa after the 2008 race was cancelled because of terrorism scares. So the official "Dakar" stopped running to Dakar. The big teams followed the "Dakar" organization to South America. But that left others who still wanted a "local" race in Africa and still wanted to actually race to Dakar. So the "Africa Eco Race" was born and started running in 2009. As to why they are both held at the same time... well, both groups probably had no reason to change their normal schedules in 2009, and it's likely just stayed that way since.
  6. Mike_MRS

    Mike_MRS Been here awhile

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    Troy I missed your post - fair enough. The point has been made.
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  7. Rotax655

    Rotax655 Aprilia World Meeting

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    the reason why Lucci mounted that type of "non-approved" tire for price reasons is neither acceptable nor acceptable. the rule says that tires "approved for road use" must be fitted. there are dozens of 90/90/21 tires suitable for the purpose. Mitas Pirelli Metzeler etc. we do not know the brand of pike's rubber but everything suggests a rubber for races on "closed circuits" with more protruding rubber blocks that offer better grip.
  8. vintageveloce

    vintageveloce Been here awhile

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    So, don't follow the rules because it saves a couple bucks? I'm not buying it. Heck, do we even know if the rider had to pay for their own tires? No tire sponsor? Or how much it actually saved? A Michelin desert race rear is US$197.88 on rocky mountain, and I suspect a eco race participant might be able to negotiate a discount.

    I mean, tires are a BIG deal in motorsports. Not following the rules about tires was a really foolish decision, at best. Or an active attempt to cheat at worst. We aren't talking about a small rule about sticker placement or something... this is a TIRE rule! What racer doesn't consider that? Heck, there are threads on advrider debating whether dual sport riders in the USA need DOT tires, as is the law. Even squids like us, for just normal riding, think about it.

    On the road book thing... was it a mandatory rider's meeting that was skipped? What are the actual rules about following changes that came up in the rider's meeting? I don't know. But I do know that at events I have competed in, skipping a rider's meeting can result in expulsion from the race. Did Lucci KNOW he was taking a short cut? We will probably never know.

    On closely examining a close competitors bike: doesn't everybody? And noticing an illegal tire? Heck, that would jump out at me. I notice non-DOT tires on dual sports all the time. Now, as I'm not racing my dual sport, I don't care. But if I was racing... I'd certainly call out an illegal tire, and then let the organizer decide what to do.

    I don't have the answers. But I do think using illegal tires, if that is what happened, was a big mistake, a "brutta figura" as the Italians would say.
  9. gmk999

    gmk999 ____ as a Rotax

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    Controversy aside... It sure would be fun to see a new R2P episode..
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  10. waldecker

    waldecker Been here awhile

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    Re front tire - the first generation of 450 RFRs is quite sensitive to the condition of the front tire and tends to suddenly wash out and crash. When I asked a successful Dakar racer how to deal with this he said:throw away the effing Michelin Desert front and put a decent moto cross tire on the front....
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  11. PilbaraGoat

    PilbaraGoat Been here awhile

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    R2P still gives us the best rally footage.

    I would be very happy if the final episode included a statement from lucci and some other competitors and from the org - and from 102,103,104 & 105. Honesty / transparency would be impressive film making.

    this is a big part of the story and would make great viewing.

    I dont think lyndon has anything to apologise for - he is who he is, like him or not (he can be assertive, or perhaps a trifle arrogant in person). I hope he has the courage to push to include all sides of the story in this documentary series.
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  12. troy safari carpente

    troy safari carpente Team f5oolery

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    [​IMG]

    RACING MOD NOTE: I'll try this again, shall I...? No more speculation, comment or slander - either way - on this matter - until such time as someone can cite a direct statement from either; Lyndon Poskitt, Paolo Lucci, or the AER Organisation - as to their viewpoint/findings on the subject.

    Okay? :thumb

    // TSC.
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  13. gmk999

    gmk999 ____ as a Rotax

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    Anyone know offhand or have a link to what the prize money is in both this event (AER) and the Dakar from Saudi this year?
  14. troy safari carpente

    troy safari carpente Team f5oolery

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    The awards and prizes for both the AER and the DAKAR are listed in the articles of the respective event regulations... :deal

    Now you know what I'm gonna' f5-ing well gonna' suggest you do now... don't you...? :brow :1drink

    This is a; No "spoon feeding" zone... :wink: :1drink
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  15. gmk999

    gmk999 ____ as a Rotax

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    In the what?
    LOL If I wanted to look it up, I wouldn't have asked the question silly.:hide
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  16. skibum69

    skibum69 slave to gravity Super Supporter

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    As I understood the leadup the only crowd funding was for the media team was it not?
  17. demonio

    demonio Been here awhile

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    Well, since I don't think anyone posted it, Paolo Lucci has a post on his IG, in Italian, which also contains an English sentence specifically addressed to Poskitt. Below my translation from Italian (the post can be found here: https://www.instagram.com/p/B7iKzPPHA_P/?utm_source=ig_web_copy_link):

    "Arrival to the temple. Two weeks loaded with emotions among gashes of a paradise I am increasingly loving each day. While I am in the middle of such marvels I leave to others appeals and bureaucracy, while I keep inside of me the magic of these moments, in between grains of sands. I am conscious of having put my heart into the whole race, and of being able to get out of this experience with a smile on my face and with my head held high.
    Thanks @solarys_racing and everybody who helped me before and during these racing days, you are fantastic.

    [IN ENGLISH IN THE ORIGINAL TEXT] Congratulations for the strong race @lyndonposkitt."
  18. BLucare

    BLucare What could possibly go wrong?

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    Official remarks from Lyndon in response to Gioele Meoni's letter, just posted to Facebook a couple minutes ago.



    "Dear Gioele,

    First of all, I want to thank you for the congratulations. The Africa Eco Race for me was an incredible experience and credit to everyone involved, in particularly the race organisation, who made it a really challenging and rewarding experience. I had an amazing time and rode with some fantastic racers, including the likes of Alessandro Botturi, Pal Anders Ullevalsetter and of course Paulo Lucci. We created friendship, raced hard and fairly always.

    I am disappointed to see that you write that I did not deserve 3rd place in the rally. In response to your points I would like to say the following.

    With regards to scrutineering in Menton on the 3rd January, you are right, all bikes are checked and cleared by the race stewards of the FIM, that is their job and why they are there. With regards to the tyres, these are changed regularly throughout the race, often each night as they wear out. After scrutineering, it is the race team´s responsibility to ensure that the correct and compliant tyres are fitted to each machine for the coming days of racing. For rally racing, all tyres have to be “E” marked or “DOT” approved in accordance with the FIM’s regulations. The regulations are put in place to ensure the playing field is level. Motocross tyres that are not E marked, typically have a taller tread height, giving an advantage to the rider. The regulation stipulates the use of E marked tyres to ensure tread height (and other aspects) are adhered to. This is the same for most levels of motorcycle completion around the world, particularly those run under FIM rules and this situation is not without precedent in the motorcycle sport. For example, in 2001 the winner of the ISDE was stripped of his 1st place before the podium due to the use of an incorrect tyre. In actual fact, under the FIM rules, I believe that any use of a noncompliant tyre at an FIM event is an excludable offence.

    Paulo Lucci #151 was not a surprise to me, of course he is a fast racer and hungry for victory just like anyone at the front of the field. I did know Lucci before the event, but as the event unfolded it was great to see such a young and upcoming rider at the front.

    Up until January 14th, Paolo and I had posted respectable and quite similar times, although I had been in front of him consistently in the general classification with time differences between 9 and 36 minutes. At the end of the stage I was surprised with the big time difference with which he won, when so many people struggled with the navigation at one particular point, including myself. When Paulo asked me where I went wrong, I went to show him on his road book, and to my surprise he did not have the note in his roadbook where things started to go wrong. A note was added by the organisation in the morning, (to leave the main track onto a +/- visible track at a new cap heading). This note was for one reason or another not in Paolo´s roadbook. Without the note he continued straight and made a huge advantage. Because so many people had that mistake in the roadbook, I simply suggested the organisation to neutralise the stage between the CP and refuelling point in that section. I want to make clear I did NOT made any claim against Paolo as you suggest. I went to talk to the organisation, suggesting the change in the roadbook had created confusion and had skewed the result for many riders in favour of those who did not add it to their roadbook. The decision was made by the organization not to do anything and I did not make any official claim, in the spirit of the race. To say I was the only one to complain, is factually incorrect. I know of more than 5 riders that went to see the organisation about the issue and even more that were talking about it in the bivouac. To single me out here is not fair, even Botturi, Ullevalsetter and Benko agreed the roadbook was misleading and went the wrong way, as they were riding with me.

    Alessandro Botturi complimented me so many time on my riding and navigation, so I asked him today what he really said and I quote, with his permission, his answer: “ I am glad you wrote to me so that you can say what I actually said. I said that he (Lyndon) put himself between me and Ullevalseter and I did not understand why. If he wanted to open piste, it was ok like that, but I did not understand why he put him in between. It was a thing I said out of tiredness at the end of the stage and it was between me and my mechanic. But it got recorded on telephone by the Italian journalist Caracciolo. I was sorry to see they have put out that video.”

    On January 18th, going into the final timed stage, I see that Paulo Lucci had opted for Motocross tyres for the “all sand” stage. Knowing these are forbidden, I asked the FIM to confirm to me if Motocross Tyres are allowed in the Africa Eco Race and to show me the supplementary regulations that allow this. They could not provide this information and reverted to the FIM regulations which is the standard procedure if the supplementary regulations do not stipulate anything specific. It is then the FIM official´s decision on the action to take and I have no further say in the subject.

    On the shores of Lac Rose, I can confirm that many Italian competitors made me feel very unwelcome, shouting abuse alongside other gestures, something I have never experienced in all my 31 years of competing in motorcycle sport. For sure I felt singled out but was there to finish the race I started 12 days ago.

    With regards to your question: “Does this premeditation belong to you in a race in which only physical, mental and moral qualities should count, and not bureaucracy?”
    The Africa Eco Race is a professional race run under the FIM rules and regulations. All competitors have to have an FIM licence and start permissions and have to comply by the FIM regulations, just like any other official Cross-Country Rally around the world. There were 4 full time FIM officials / jury at the event to ensure that these FIM controls are put in place. Of course Physical, Metal and Moral qualities do count and while we are on the subject of Moral which means "concerned with the principles of right and wrong behaviour” or "holding or manifesting high principles for proper conduct”, this is responsibility of all teams at such high calliper events to ensure they comply by the rules.

    Of course, your Father Fabrizio and so many other top racers have been idols of mine for years. I have been racing motorcycles for 31 years now and Rally Racing since 2011. I have a massive love for the sport and a huge respect for all the people who participate and make it possible for us. It is really a truly incredible sport and one that I am sure to be involved in for years to come. I love to share my stories and experiences in a very open manner and of course I will share the remainder of the Africa Eco Race in a positive but honest reflection of what took place. I hope you will enjoy seeing it. Just last year I was fortunate enough to ride one of the genuine 950 Rally bikes that your father raced at the Akrapovic Factory, it really moved me, what your father achieved on those huge machines is really quit something, a legend always.

    For me, my spirit and respect for others has always been there and was no different at the Africa Eco Race this year. Rules are there to be respected also and the FIM simply did what they felt was right under the circumstances of the infringement. I have nothing against Paulo Lucci or his riding and would only share positive comments about him. I wish him all the best for his future in rally racing.

    Thank you Gioele for writing this and for giving me the opportunity to answer your questions in the public eye.

    Kind regards,

    Lyndon"
  19. troy safari carpente

    troy safari carpente Team f5oolery

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    ^^^ That is precisely the type of response (from one of the parties involved)^^^ that I was referring to earlier --- no problem.

    // TSC.
  20. gmk999

    gmk999 ____ as a Rotax

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    Cheers all!
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