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Discussion in 'Equipment' started by mikeyoda, Dec 20, 2009.
It will as long as correct software used
Instead of race version
I have nothing to offer to this except that 'seems' can be a giant red herring. I've worked as an engineer for long enough to have rolled my eyes at plenty of comments about how 'stupid' engineers were to do X Y or Z for a certain design, when the truth is that the consumer simply doesn't have access or visibility to the testing scenarios and design decisions that had to be made.
That’s fair comment. I’ve only come across one study so far about engineering criteria for airbags, but it’s behind a paywall:
Has anyone actually taken posession of a Klim airbag vest yet? Mine has been on order for months. I keep checking with their Facebook page messenger. He said that some have started shipping already.
No but I ask for something from them like a set of gloves since you did pay for and have been waiting .
I like the way you think!! Good idea. They make some very nice gloves.
While we're waiting for Klim, has anyone seen the new Helite E-Turtle electronic airbag vest?
No thanks, I stick with my mechanical turtle 2. I'm not interested in relying on electronics in the vest.
That was my plan too - to stick with a mechanical airbag system - until it didn’t work when I needed it. Consequently, I’ve now more confidence in an electronic airbag (and expect it will deploy faster too).
There's a story behind that statement, please expound on the details.
While I’ve posted the story on here before, in summary: I was hit from behind by another vehicle, and I went flying over the handlebars. The ripcord pulled but the jacket didn’t inflate. I returned the airbag jacket - with a complaint!
The shop where I’d bought the airbag - a Hit-Air Neck system integrated into a Spidi jacket - found nothing wrong with it.
I expect it was a rare occurrence, and there are many more positive stories of Hit-Air saving people’s necks. However, I changed my mind about mechanical systems being more reliable than electronic airbags.
In the small print, all manufacturers highlight conditions where the airbag won’t trigger, and I accept the tech is developing. On balance, I decided to get a Tech-Air because of Alpinestars’ MotoGP knowhow and this airbag’s high coverage. Now, I’d be weighing up the Tech-Air against Helite’s new E-Turtle.
Looking at what little research exists, I also concluded that it’s worthwhile having the speed of an electronic system. Tethers can mean the airbag’s late to the party: fast enough for a single vehicle accident but too slow for a two-vehicle crash. And I hope scientists will do more independent research into airbags so we can be better informed.
One question did you when you got it, did open up where the co2 is stored and push it from safe to inflate ? Theres a sliding thing that is in the safe position straight from hit air. They always ship like this . Only when it s taken off safe that well it inflate. I m not doubting you but just wanting to know if you did or didn't not do that . I rather have the electronic ones but really I dont have the cash it cost . Nor am I defending hit air. At least with some makers of computer control ones they ll test it if it goes off and refurbish it with a new bag for 300 bucks . Hit air etc doesn't offer that type of service .
Yes, I had set correctly. Judging by many positive reviews of Hit-Air working, I think I was unlucky. If it was a manufacturing defect - and I don’t know this - then any company can have a rare production issue.
It did change my mind about mechanical airbags being more reliable than electronic systems. I imagine there are circumstances where either type mightn’t work. And I expect electronic systems will come down in price eventually.
The bigger issue is speed of inflation. There’s research (Ballester et al 2019) which found inflation within 70 milliseconds is needed to protect riders from impact with a car; this speed requires an electronic airbag. Though inflation within 200 milliseconds is enough for most single-vehicle crashes, so tethered systems should protect if you crash all by yourself.
Here’s the research (but the details are behind a paywall ): https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0001457518308017
My turtle 2 has an inflation time of less than 1/10 of a second. And there's numerous accounts of the vest hitting or being hit by a vehicle that resulted in inflation and resulted in much less damage.
I have no knowledge of the hit air product.
I'd expect tethered airbags work in some crashes – depending on the type of bike and accident scenario.
In a head-on, for example, a sportsbike rider will likely be decelerated by the pelvis hitting the tank. It mightn't be the same on an adventure bike. And a scooter rider will probably hit the front glove compartment first. There are other types of crash, as we all know (head-on-side collisions, oblique collisions, being rear-ended, and so on).
Each scenario will involve different times before the rider hits something hard and painful.
Tethered airbags may be quick enough to protect us in some crashes but not others. Both the Ballester research (mentioned above) and ADAC tests have shown the speed of electronic airbags adds considerable safety.
MotoVibes' YouTube review showed a crash with a tethered airbag: you can (just about) spot that the airbag inflated after the rider had begun sliding along the ground. He mentions this, and why he subsequently upgraded to an electronic vest.
Not all airbags are created equal. Even electronic systems will only inflate in a defined range of accidents, and this range of circumstances varies. On its website, for example, Dainese shows the scenarios for which each type of airbag (road or race) is designed to work.
Real tests of the Helite in actual crashes
I argued that there are some crashes in which a tethered airbag helps. But this issue – airbag choice – is nuanced.
The other video (mentioned above) shows a Helite mechanical system triggering after the rider had begun sliding down the road. And Peanut Buttery talked about his tethered airbag failing to inflate despite the ripcord pulling.
I also mentioned that electronic airbags won’t trigger in every conceivable crash scenario. The manufacturers are open about this, with Dainese even showing pictures of (only) the crash scenarios in which its airbags work. But independent tests (e.g. ADAC) still rated electronic systems as more protective because of their speed. Also, Ballester’s research group found that electronic systems protect in more scenarios than mechanical airbags because of the speed.
So, electronic systems are better? Yes. But it’s nuanced: airbag coverage varies, and some electronic systems don’t cover as much as we’d like. The 3rd generation D-Air Road, for example, is one of the very few airbags to achieve CE-Level 2 Airbag protection (for the chest) and also protects the neck. But it doesn’t cover the back! The Tech-Air Street gives more shoulder and torso protection than anything I’ve seen – but doesn’t include the neck. Helite covers the neck, but maybe too much because some neck movement might act as a shock absorber to reduce brain damage?
In short, there’s no simple best choice but I'd pick an electronic system over a (still valuable) mechanical airbag.
I haven’t, and I’ve no real idea what the price will be. I’m rather interested in this one, with the fork sensor.
It was your scenario, where the tether didn’t work, that got me thinking more of electronic deployment. As well getting hit, since I ride on the street.
I email them and got this answer
“Thank you for contacting Klim!
The AI-1 airbag vest is unfortunately delayed. Due to Covid-19 and insurance approval we do not have them available at this time. We do not have an ETA of when we will have them available. We do understand the frustration that this is causing. We are doing our best to bring out the best product in a timely matter.
Lukas Morgan | Customer Service Associate
KLIM | 3753 County Line Road | Rigby, Idaho 83442
p 208.552.7433 | f 208.552.1615
KLIM.com | firstname.lastname@example.org
Product Ideas | email@example.com
I also like the fork sensor, and think it’s worth getting geeky about airbags. They each have a different “envelope of protection" that (because they're not cheap) I'm weighing up:
Airbag coverage: the Tech-Air Street and E-Turtle look like they have the most coverage, but there are differences between them (e.g. neck, shoulder, hips).
Deployment time: is it fast enough to inflate before hitting something painful? I believe all the current electronic systems look quick enough (as far as I can tell).
Crash scenarios: Dainese’s website shows the situations in which its D-Air Road will work. Alpinestars – if you download the Tech-Air manual online – shows that its system covers hitting anything with an impact angle from 45 to 135 degree, as well as the limits of its airbag off-road. Another inmate emailed In&Motion and got a detailed response about the scenarios in which it would deploy. I haven’t checked the E-Turtle.
Knowhow: It's intangible, and I've appreciate others' opinions, but the MotoGP knowhow at Dainese and Alpinestars has got to be worth something.
Whilst mulling over things, I'd love input from others. Do we have any tech geeks or ER doctors?