Ajp pr7

Discussion in 'Thumpers' started by Tiago, Sep 30, 2014.

  1. JMo (& piglet)

    JMo (& piglet) Unicorn breeder

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    I'd say the only real liability would be if you dropped it on the right hand side - certainly river crossings and rock hits don't seem to worry the current generation of rally bikes all that much?

    In fact, one benefit of having the silencer a little lower than on a regular dirt bike is that you can fit soft luggage like a Giant Loop without the need for a frame to stop it melting on the can...

    There's always a flip-side to these things ;o)

    Jx
    #41
  2. Dutchgit

    Dutchgit Completely clogless

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    In my opinion you don't want to have pillion pegs nor hard luggage if you think you want this bike or the CCM.
    It's (by the look of it as it stands now) a bike that will be there to go on an adventure (be it a rally or not) where you want to bring only the very things you actually need so you can go fast on most types of terrain.
    Hard luggage weighs, a centre stand, weighs, a pillion weighs, all sorts of fairings, heated seats and "whateverthef*ckyouthinkmightbeagoodideatohavein caseof" just weighs you down, and you have to pick that up if you fall down with it.
    If you want to look the part with your partner turning at the ice cream van, with your rufty tufty bike complete with your empty panniers, there are plenty of other bikes to choose from. They'll be heavy but they'll be loaded with all the comfort you'd ever want getting your ice cream on a sunny Sunday afternoon.

    The bike in the pictures posted in this thread is nothing more than an idea of what AJP's next bike might look like, modelled in clay, wood some metal and 3D printed plastics.
    I hope they listen to their potential real customers and make something that people will actually buy and use it for its intended purposes.

    Cheers, Ard
    #42
  3. kyns

    kyns Long timer

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    Where's the clay and wood? :lol3

    Don't see any.
    #43
  4. Tim Cullis

    Tim Cullis Partially heighted

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    As you say, your opinion. Mine differs. I've already said I prefer hard luggage for security. I often park up in the middle of nowhere to go exploring and would like my stuff to still be there when I get back.

    <iframe width="640" height="390" src="//www.youtube.com/embed/d2kerCCmcNE" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

    When I'm riding solo, thousands of km from home, dozens of km from the nearest tarmac, riding fast isn't exactly top of my list. If I was, I certainly wouldn't be doing it on a lardy bike like the AJP PR7 looks to be. It needs to shed 45 kg to go racing.

    Are you deliberately trying to be confrontational?

    .
    #44
  5. Grreatdog

    Grreatdog Long timer Supporter

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    Yep, which is exactly why I said it would likely excel at long range rally bike kinds of things. I get the concept.

    But I am on my third 640 skidplate. Even my nearly bulletproof Flatlands has been hammered out a couple times.

    So I am still not wild about rally exhaust on any dual sport used offroad. But not everybody crashes through rocks.
    #45
  6. JMo (& piglet)

    JMo (& piglet) Unicorn breeder

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    We're on the same page Grreatdog ;o)

    I agree - I'd say it's not so much the silencer position itself, rather the problem with a low (under the footpeg) header is the need for substantial bashplate as you say - which in turn can also have potential heat issues...

    But the problem the designers face is how else do you route the header to the silencer through that middle section of the bike (especially if you want to keep the ergonomics narrow) - particularly when the whole rear subframe is the fuel tank?

    Of course KTM managed it with the 690 Enduro (and included a high level silencer) - but their rear tank is substantially smaller (11L vs 17L) than the proposed one on the AJP... there is going to have to be a compromise somewhere, and I'd say it is far more fundamental to have a decent fuel range on a bike like this?

    Jx
    #46
  7. JMo (& piglet)

    JMo (& piglet) Unicorn breeder

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    While I'm wading about in the mire of this thread, I'd say that both Dutchgit and Tim Cullis have good points - which illustrate the dilemma the AJP designers face...

    On the one hand, bulking the bike up so it is substantial enough to carry a pillion and a full set of hard luggage means it's effectively going to be an XT660Z - just with better suspension... Certainly all things being equal (in that forks, swingarm, wheels, controls and body panels all roughly way the same on a bike like this) then the main limitation is going to the physical size of the engine (which is this case is an old school design and relatively heavy) plus whether you include a substantial subframe or not - the Tenere for example doesn't even have a 'sub frame' - it's a complete full-length frame, plus an exhaust can that weighs 8Kg on it's own!

    If anyone is actually going to buy this bike (bearing in mind that AJP are a European company, where the current 660 Tenere is widely sold), then it is going to have to offer an appreciable set of benefits to tempt buyers away from the established opposition - and weight and suspension performance are the two main areas where the Tenere is compromised - and seemingly the #1 & #2 key considerations when choosing an adventure/dual-sport bike.

    But I also have to agree with Tim (he does know what he's talking about when it comes to travelling you know ;o) - no one is saying you have to run with hard luggage - but not including the OPTION severely limits the potential market... and lets face it, for this to be a production reality, AJP need as many potential punters as they can get?

    It's a tough call for AJP - they are not an out-and-out race-oriented brand like KTM - but at the same time they are aware there is a potential market out there for a stone-dead reliable but more dirt-focused adventure dual-sport than is currently available. The compromise for a manufacturer is always going to be what are they likely to sell the most of?

    Jx
    #47
  8. Gian

    Gian dreamer

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    JMo, which was the weight of your beautiful Heroes Legend Ténéré 660, incl. oil and a few fuel liters?
    #48
  9. JMo (& piglet)

    JMo (& piglet) Unicorn breeder

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    Hi Gian - I never weighed it to be honest, and for all the parts I took off, I then supplemented with the rally nav gear (and metal skid-plate etc.) of course, so it was broadly the same...

    However, I would say I immediately saved over 5Kg by replacing the stock 8Kg silencer under the seat with a Ti shorty can that weighted about 2.7Kg in comparison...

    There was probably a good 2Kg by removing the huge rear licence-plate hanger and tail light assembly too, 1.2Kg (yes really) in removing the stock bar-end weights, and another couple of kilos removing the pillion pegs and hangers. I also saved another 3Kg at least by only running a single front calliper and disc (albeit a slightly larger diameter disc) and a correspondingly lighter front hub.

    But my point above is that although I fitted Talon Rally wheels, WP 48mm forks, Ohlins shock - they basically all still weighed about the same as the stock parts, although they were of course much higher quality and performance parts...

    Fundamentally, you can't really shed significant weight from the stock Tenere as long as the engine, main frame and huge double-skinned fuel tank remain... in comparison, I know the Thorsten from OTR had a Rally bike built around the XT660R version, and he thought that was about 160Kg ready to ride - so AJPs target of 155Kg is not unrealistic I would say?

    Jx

    ps. Here's a little reminder, just before it was sold ;o)

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]
    #49
  10. Tim Cullis

    Tim Cullis Partially heighted

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    Well maybe the heavy Minarelli engine from the Tenere isn't the best starting point?

    My 139-kg dry weight KTM 690 Enduro comes with pillion footpegs and whilst I'm not confident it would take a heavy pillion AND heavy luggage, it's certainly capable of taking a pillion OR luggage. Which is what I need. And the triangulation design of the Metal Mule pannier rails pushing the weight onto the main frame gives me confidence carrying luggage over rough ground.

    My recent four week trip in Morocco I was carrying a substantial tool kit, tyre irons, tyre pump, tent, sleeping roll, sleeping bag, stove, food, water, MacBook and other 'essentials'. I weighed my filled panniers which were 28kg. Probably another 6kg for roll bag and tank bag.

    The downside for the 690 is lack of weather protection for colder climates. Absolutely no problem with fuel range from the 11.7-litre tank as I was easily getting 25 km/litre. Hell, I was even getting 22 km/litre motorway cruising at 125 kph. My best day was over 30 km/litre.

    [​IMG]
    #50
  11. JMo (& piglet)

    JMo (& piglet) Unicorn breeder

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    I agree Tim - although that said, the current LC4 engine is not actually that much smaller or lighter than the XT660 lump anyway?

    But certainly the 690 is a vastly more 'dynamic' and agile bike than the stock Tenere, and as you say, is perfectly capable of carrying a reasonable amount of luggage.

    The problem for AJP of course, is that KTM are never going to sell any of their engines to a 3rd party/competitor - so if anyone wants that sort of performance in a 650cc class package, they are going to have to stick with a 690 Enduro as a base bike, and modify that with the accessories (tanks, luggage racks, fairing) as they desire.

    Jx
    #51
  12. Dutchgit

    Dutchgit Completely clogless

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    As much as opinions to bikes differ, the way we ride differ and as such our view of what our own ideal bike should be like differ as well.
    Hard luggage is possibly more theft proof. In that regard I'd like to point out that there is slash proof soft lugage as well.

    I personally like to ride pretty quick as the riding in itself is what comes first of all things with me. Stunning views and meeting nice people comes right after that. I tend to stay away from cities in general and culture may have its merrits but it's not on my most wanted list.
    In order to ride pretty quick the AJP specs appeal to me as the weight is more or less what my XCountry weighs, power output is a close match as well but the AJP has better wheels, and suspension which might make up for the litle loss in power compared to my XCo.
    I assume for a moment here that by "lardy" you mean that the bike looks heavy or is heavy given the spec'd weight of 155 Kg.
    There is no such thing as a kitted up bike with all the wants and a weight of under 150 Kg.
    It'd need to be made out carbon fiber and fairy dust and to date I have seen nor heard of such a thing.

    I don't want to tread on any one's toes, I only want proper adventure bikes to be conceived, built and sold to the people who really want them and the dreamers who buy all the gear and have no idea or even the slightest inclination to go on an adventure to stop whining about stuff that weighs things down but is convenient and makes you look good, which you don't need on bikes like the AJP and the CCM.

    Cheers, Ard
    #52
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  13. Gian

    Gian dreamer

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    Any photo of that XT660R Rally version? Thanks again Jenny!
    #53
  14. JMo (& piglet)

    JMo (& piglet) Unicorn breeder

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    It was a while ago now... back in 2008/09 actually - I met Thorsten on the Tuareg Rally in 2008 with his XT660R based bike:

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]
    (second one in, next to Tina's WR)

    We reconnected the following year once I'd bought my Tenere back from the USA, and a lot of the parts he now sells were prototyped/tested on my bike:

    More info here: http://www.off-the-road.de/en/home/

    Part of the weight reduction included a fibreglass tank (which personally I would say is potentially a disaster waiting to happen?) - which of course gave his bike a little more fuel range - although I'm not sure that part is still available?

    Jx

    ps. If that tank is no longer available, one idea that I had would be to use a suitable plastic saddle tank (I'm thinking the one you can get for the G650X for example) that would fit around the XT660R's rad - then mount the OTR fairing (or something similar) above that? - hell, that's got me thinking about building a beast out of a 660R now!
    #54
  15. SATEX

    SATEX Long timer

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    ditto :clap
    #55
  16. Tim Cullis

    Tim Cullis Partially heighted

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    Given AJP's projection of first deliveries at end 2015/early 2016, it's a long way off and specs might well change. As it stands, yes you would gain from having 21/18 wheels rather than the 'street' 19/17 of the XCountry and the suspension is longer, but the AJP's power is 10% down and weight is 5% higher than the XCountry. If you find the 9.5-litre fuel capacity of your XCountry workable, you'd be better off getting a XChallenge.

    The obvious candidate to dispute that is the KTM 690 Enduro R which comes in at 139kg yet with more than 25% more power than the AJP/XCountry. I think 139kg is light but fellow TRF members look at my 690 as a heavy bike! Many are riding sub-115kg 450cc bikes with a similar power profile as the CCM GP450.

    On my Spanish-registered 690, tower/screens and big fuel tanks are as useless to me as hard luggage obviously is to you. Northern Europe is colder, so I am considering fitting the Britannia Lynx tower/screen on my UK-registered 690. But even if you fit the Rally Raid large fuel tanks and the Rally Raid tower/screen you're still talking sub-150kg. With my Wings silencer, the dry weight would be 146kg.

    .
    #56
  17. Dutchgit

    Dutchgit Completely clogless

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    You've got some points there. I forgot that the CCM weighs about 130 kg as well.
    I like the styling of the Country better than the Challenge but in hindsight I had been better off buying a Challenge and fitting a different tank and seat set-up.
    I've got the X-Tank on mine and fuel range is now around 370 km which is fine.
    the standard 9.5 L. tank is just too small. I just don't like filling up twice a day.
    I considered a 690 as well but it was too expensive for me.

    Cheers, Ard
    #57
  18. The Jester

    The Jester Long timer

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    Since the parts are interchangeable you could fit Xchallenge suspension and wheels to your Xco. Quite a few Xch owners have upgraded theirs so you should find the parts somewhere. Or miss out the middle step and fit WP / Marzocci Shivers upfront and a hyperpro / ohlins unit on the rear.

    When I had my Xch I swapped to KTM625 forks and then sold the originals - I nearly broke even on the deal and it was definitely a big improvement.

    Now back to the AJP

    Too new and expensive for me but it looks to be an interesting bike. If it is anything like their smaller capacity bikes it will be worth looking at. I have looked at these and was very impressed with the quality of the components, especially considering the price of the bikes. The british importer also had a 250 bike which was kitted out as a rally bike with frame mounted fairing and nav kit. The really impressive bit however was the 18L alloy fuel tank / subframe which replaced the standard plastic unit. Iirc these were available for around £600 which didn't seem too bad, especially when compared to the price that Touratech charges for the Xchallenge tank, given that an alloy tank is move involved to make than a moulded plastic tank.

    At the end of the day, true adventure bikes are a niche market (I don't count the pseudo adventure behemoths here) and will not be a big earner for the major manufacturers. Just as well then that we have small manufacturers like CCM and AJP who are well placed to fill the gap in the market. Bring it on!
    #58
  19. Evil Invader

    Evil Invader Been here awhile

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    Amen to that!! :clap

    Damn right! :deal

    I like the looks of the AJP. But I want my forklegs in gold :evil
    #59
  20. Dutchgit

    Dutchgit Completely clogless

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    Niche market or not, if the price is right and people who ride bigger/heavier bikes find out how much fun it actually is to ride a lighter bike that will go virtually anywhere it should more or less sell itself.
    There are a number of people who ride a Beemer 650 X bike next to their big mothership and the big mothership gets used less and less...
    #60