An 800's Rebirth/The build of MechanicO

Discussion in 'Parallel Universe' started by FinTec, Dec 12, 2014.

  1. FinTec

    FinTec Been here awhile

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    So spent quite a bit of time researching triple clamps. Wow, there is quite a world out there on the design and theory behind these otherwise "not talked about much" part. They play a major roll in how your bike handles and feels. So here is the bottom line: offset. Offset determines the amount of trail you have: less offset = more trail / more offset = less trail. Trail is what gives you stability or as I call it "hands off the bars" ability. It is what keeps a bike upright and straight when you take your hands off the bars. However, you have to "fight" this to make the bike turn. So you don't want too much trail.

    You can learn some basics on motorcycle front ends HERE but there is a ton or articles and books on this subject as well.

    I want to take a second here to thank a member here at ADV, "Lukas". He was kind enough to answer my questions on his conversion to WP forks and give me his opinions on what works and does not. This is invaluable as I really only want to take one shot at this and guys like Lukas are VERY helpful. Thank you Lukas.

    Bottom line is stock factory bikes tend to have a lot of trail. Makes the bike easy to ride, stable, and non-offensive in character. Well I want a bike that handles well and is quick, I have a car if I want boring and straight. So the goal with the triple clamps was to increase the steering capacity of over stock bike and the way to do this is increase offset.

    Stock offset on the 800 (at least the 2013) is, by my measurements, 11mm at the triples and 35mm at the lower legs, for a total offset of 46mm. Now interestingly enough the WP fork I have are the same offset on the lower (35mm) so I only need to vary the offset at the triple. After talking to Lukas and a few others I went with 14mm offset at the triples, 3mm more than stock. This gives me a total of 49mm offset. That is only 6.5% more than stock. In my opinion enough to make a difference but not be dangerous.

    Time to model these bad-boys......
    #21
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  2. Traumat1x

    Traumat1x Been here awhile

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    Excellent info. Looking forward to reading the rest of this build.
    #22
  3. Kiwi Tinkerer

    Kiwi Tinkerer Ross

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    I rebuilt a crashed R1200gs. Slightly worse condition. It was great fun. I worked out a budget that mean't it was worth doing. Otherwise I would have sold it for parts. I used brand new forks (No alternatives for the 1200). Otherwise I was lucky to find most parts from wreckers. (Beamerboneyard in US and Victoria wreckers in Sydney).
    My best investment was a GS-911 so I could test things and reset all of the latched error codes.

    have fun. I look forward to watching the build.
    #23
  4. Wallrat

    Wallrat Been here awhile

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    [​IMG]
    #24
  5. murph76

    murph76 Been here awhile

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    You r doing what bmw should have done right from the start put some white power on the 800gs....i would have liked to have gone this route myself but after getting a little 411 from Lukas it would have ended up costing me about 3-4k if i remember correctly...instead i went with the traxxion dynamics ak-20 set up...poor man's version of WP's...anyways looks like fun will follow.
    #25
  6. FinTec

    FinTec Been here awhile

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    So a bit of back ground here: when ever I make something as involved as say, motorcycle triple clamps, I solid model them. This is a very powerful tool when you want to design something. It does take a bit to learn but if you can think in the 3D world, you'll get it right away. I use a program called "Inventor" by AutoDesk (the AutoCAD people). The other one you see a lot is SolidWorks. Both great programs and do essentially the same thing. You can even use GoogleSketch (free) to do some basic modeling. Most local colleges offer courses in this as well. However, if you are serious about making stuff like this, learn to model. This is no place to be a sculptor.

    The first thing I did was make a crude model of just the WP fork upper as seen here:

    [​IMG]

    So the goals I had for these triples was:
    • Accommodate larger WP fork tubes
    • Change offset from 46mm to 49mm
    • Integrated KTM high fender mounts
    • Integrated Scott steering damper mounts
    • Adjustable steering stops
    • And look cool and finished

    So with that I modeled the top triple first:

    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]

    Then I modeled the Lower triple:

    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]

    Now here is an interesting thing, the distance between center to center on the fork tubes is usually 190mm for KTMs. However, I made mine 210mm which is the wider option less seen but used on the SuperMoto models. Why does this matter? Well, I also plan to run a large single front rotor and caliper. And what happens is if you run these on a 21" wheel (which I am) you can get interference with the rotor to spokes because the angle of the spokes on a 21" wheel are so lax as they go to the rim, they can hit the caliper. I was informed of this by Lukas and some other SM guys. Sure enough, I saw some guys who had done the single rotor (320mm) and they had to shave a bit off the caliper to clear the spokes. The solution is run wider fork legs. This is what the supermoto guys do to clear that gigantic rotor they run in front as well as clear those small but wide tires they like in front.

    Now I say all this thinking I am ahead of the game here. But here is what is odd, the stock triples on this 2013 800 where 210mm spacing :huh Have no idea why. Tons of room for the stock wheel and brakes. So no clue why they did this. And not sure if pre-2013 800 are also 210mm? Anyone go out to their bike and measure this out of curiosity?

    Here is a drawing of the dimension so you see what I am talking about. Note the other red circled dimension shows the offset I also changed:

    [​IMG]

    So now with the power of computer modeling lets put it all together and see how it looks. (I also quickly modeled the BMW stock head tube so we had something to attached this to)

    [​IMG]

    Came out nice. I really like the adjustable steerring stops as I plan to increase the turning from +42/-42 degrees that I believe is stock (any one confirm?) to +45/-45 deg.

    The next part after this will be the steer tube but I am going to wait until I have made the triples and then go from there.

    So the next post we'll be where we actually machine these form jumbo blocks of aluminum :clap
    #26
  7. Camel ADV

    Camel ADV Long timer Supporter

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    Early F800gs is 210mm as well.
    #27
  8. sarathmenon

    sarathmenon Armchair Adventurer

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    My guess is that BMW went with 210 mm because of the dual rotors. Gotta have some space somewhere.
    #28
  9. MTrider16

    MTrider16 Ridin' in MT

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    This thread looks subscription worthy. :wink:

    Looks like you are going to have some fun with this.

    David
    #29
  10. Reaver

    Reaver How Did I Get Here?

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    Methinks it'll take longer to write about it. :D

    Hopefully you got the gauges repaired as in my thread. Info I didn't have when we were discussing it.
    #30
  11. FinTec

    FinTec Been here awhile

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    Reaver: appreciate the help on the dash but the unit was so damaged could not bring it back even with a new case. The tach and about half a dozen other feature just did not work. It took quite a hit.
    #31
  12. FinTec

    FinTec Been here awhile

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    So we are going to start with the upper triple clamp. I am using a block of 6061 T6511 aluminum. From what I can tell the stock clamps are from cast aluminum so confidence is VERY high we are achieving same if not better strength with using 6061. There are other aspect to safety that I accounted for in the design but would need to be another discussion. But I can certainly talk about that if there is interest.

    One thing you will see me do a lot is print scale version of the parts I make, cut them out, and then use that cut-out to make sure it will fit on the blank and as well as just hold the "part" in you hand and make sure it is OK. When you only look at parts on a computer screen it is easy to loose track of scale and make something that looks fine on the screen but in reality it will not fit in the application. So I even took these paper versions and laid them on the head tube of the frame to make sure there are no interference.

    [​IMG]

    So here is the machine we'll be using to make these parts for MechanicO. This is an older Fadal 3016 CNC machine that I have had for close to 10 years now. Not fancy and I certainly would not make jet engine parts on her, but as the famous Han Solo once said "she's got it where it counts". They are now very inexpensive if you ever think of getting one and now that the company is out of business, the funny thing is parts are now easier to get and cheaper as those vendors are no longer tied to OEM exclusives with Fadal. Open market now.

    [​IMG]

    First you make the blank square so it will sit in the vice with confideance.

    [​IMG]

    Now the blank is ready to go. I also like to Sharpie the outline of the part on the blank so I can visually see where the cutting tools need to go. I don't want to have to make this again!

    [​IMG]

    This is the tool set we will be using. That 1" three flute carbide EM is an expensive one but has been so useful over the years.

    [​IMG]

    First drill all the pilot holes

    [​IMG]

    Then EM the big bores, but still undersized from final size

    [​IMG]

    So to get the big bores for the fork tubes as well as the center hole for the steer tube I used a boring bar. In theory you can interpolate the holes and use the end mill. However, this machine is not super-crazy accurate and the holes would never be truly round. They might be to say .002", but seeing as these clamp onto an aluminum tube I felt we need better accuracy than that. So a boring bar lets you get this. The boring bar cannot remove a lot of material so thus why we hogged it out with the 1" EM first.

    [​IMG]

    Now finish the outside profile with the 1" EM

    [​IMG]

    Emma approves so far

    [​IMG]

    Operation #1 complete. I cut off all the extra material with the band-saw as that just gets in the way for op #2. Which is next.....

    [​IMG]
    #32
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  13. sarathmenon

    sarathmenon Armchair Adventurer

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    Hell yeah. Most of the threads out here goes like this: what top box do I get, do these side cases make my bike's ass look fat... You on the other hand are on to something epic here. So keep talking more about your design, and the design choices you made, I am all ears. I am sure a dozen other people are as well.

    Good job on the progres so far :thumb I was half expecting some redneck engineering to crop up :D
    #33
  14. Camel ADV

    Camel ADV Long timer Supporter

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    Well done sir! Looking good so far :thumb
    #34
  15. OKstripe

    OKstripe Adventurer

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    Count me in Mr. Wizard. When MechanicO is done will you be using your powers to turn lead into gold? :bow
    #35
  16. oldenduronoob

    oldenduronoob Adventurer

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    most excellent thread! :clap
    #36
  17. 70East

    70East Been here awhile

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    I'd kill for a CNC in my garage. This is awesome, always been envious of machinists. Good job. 5 stars.
    #37
  18. ramon

    ramon weezin' the juice!

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    I'm in :clap
    #38
  19. GeeK_InsiDe

    GeeK_InsiDe Moore Gas!!!

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    :lurk
    #39
  20. wipe-out

    wipe-out Been here awhile

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    :clap Awesome!
    #40
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