An 800's Rebirth/The build of MechanicO

Discussion in 'Parallel Universe' started by FinTec, Dec 12, 2014.

  1. GREWUPIN_D11

    GREWUPIN_D11 GREWUPIN_D11

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    97707, yes, I think it is more complicated than it seems. This Wikipedia article on CAN bus might give you some insights. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CAN_bus
  2. 97707

    97707 Vulture capitalist

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    Thanks GREWUP. My experience with computers is you can never know everything. You go learn a bunch trying and just end up still ignorant, but at a higher level.

    But the question was, why does a brake light need to be computerized at all? Why not just remove it from the canbus and operate it old school: a light powered by the stator/ battery source and activated by a switch. It doesn't need to be more complicated than that. Does it?

    .
  3. Bayner

    Bayner Long timer

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    It's 2 lights in one though, brake and tail. I'm not sure how they achieve variable intensity. Maybe just 2 banks of LEDs. If it's PWM'd or some such crap it would be hard to replicate.
  4. omekim

    omekim Adventurer

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    Its a single lamp PWM'd.
  5. FinTec

    FinTec Been here awhile

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    I am agreeing here with what I am reading. There is probably WAY more going on with communications than just looking for a termination resistor. I do have it down to just four wires but cannot get any further past that. What gets me is there is no power to the ABS unit and it still works the brake lights fine. So it is something that does not need power but yet CANbus freaks out when it does not see this.

    Have made several attempts now to cheat the ABS but I think I am going down a dead end. So my options are:

    1. Leave the dead ABS unit attached to the harness and stuff it somewhere in the bike.
    2. Try to gut the ABS to get just the electronics I need to work, repackage, stuff in bike somewhere.
    3. See if the dealer can reflash the ECU to remove this function and leave the brake light alone.
    4. Completely rewire the entire riding light and brake light circuit so it is it's own circuit and nothing to do with ECU.

    1 and 2 are just not clean and at this pint I do not trust this will work in the long run.

    3 makes me laugh as I want to see what the dealer says when i ask him to "remove a factory safety protocol from my brake system". I can hear their attorney grab their chest and stagger around the room.

    4 is where this is headed. Only issue is I really was not prepared to work the back end of the bike at this point. Was going to do something custom later after it was running. So I do want to try and use the stock light pod. This would mean I would need to find an aftermarket driver that would let me PWM the lights separate from the ECU controller.

    Did some searching last night but could not find a nice small PWM unit for this. Anyone have an idea where to get one? Actually, just need the ablity to PWM the riding light so I get the "dim" version of the tail light. Then I just go full non-PWM 12v for the brake light. So something that will PWM the tail light signal only will work.

    97707: front and read brakes are on separate circuits. The ABS does not "combine" the two in anyway. This is mainly for safety. If one goes the other is still good. Redundancy. I have pulled many ABS units from nay vehicles and never an issue. Other than lose some weight and complexity :wink:
  6. omekim

    omekim Adventurer

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    I'd vote (2), it seams cleaner to me than (4). That way you've simply replaced the ABS module with a dummy and not messed with anything else. It will probably only give you a rear activated light though.

    If you do go for (4), as soon as you leave the rear lamp disconnected, the main controller will throw up a LAMP error to the dash. You may be able to use a brake modulator like the the SupaBrake (http://www.vizi-tec.com/supabrake-2/) to do the pwm work for you. If you don't like the flashing, it has a solid/normal mode. You'll need to read through the different models and/or discuss with ViziTec to find out which would work best, or if you need a custom programming. (I have one plugged in inline and it works a treat)

    Either way, sounds like you are in for a fun game of Wack-a-mole:(
  7. machinebuilder

    machinebuilder Long timer

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    just to add another option,

    Find a ECU from a NON ABS bike.

    BUT from other threads and issues it might not work with the instrument cluster (numbers not matching)
  8. Bayner

    Bayner Long timer

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    Can you easily strip the electronics pot from the pump and valve body, cause that would be the simplest at this point. Wouldn't be much weight remaining with just the circuits.
  9. FinTec

    FinTec Been here awhile

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    So after many deep thoughts staring at the ABS unit I decided to try extracting the electronics out of the ABS and make the brake lights work with the bare minimum from the ABS. I figured if this went sideways, I would default to making a new brake circuit from scratch and be done with it. But this was worth a try. Wack-a-mole for sure! So here is the ABS cover cracked open

    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]

    The cover came off with little effort using a screw driver and a little twisting. There is some major processing going on here as there is a serious amount integrated circuits. Now to remove the circuit board from the unit. This was NOT easy and I had to tread lightly. I also "walked" towards it. I would cut out a bunch of the connections and then re-hook it up to the bike and confirm the brake lights still worked. I did this several times as I cut more the board out. Finally she came free

    [​IMG]

    I then soldered wires to the terminals that I determined still allowed the brake lights to work

    [​IMG]

    Wired those in the harness and the conclusion....total 100% fail. The brake lights now just come on just like when I originally unplugged the socket for the ABS unit. Nuts. Only thing I can figure is there is some contacts that are removed when you remove the circuit board and there is no way around it. This must be enough to freak out the CANbus gods and there you go. Or rather no go.

    So time to walk away from this. I will now make a separate brake circuit to operate the brake light logic. No big deal and I did find a unit that will control the tail light via PWM. So should be pretty straight forward.

    Side question: does anyone know what this plug is for in the tail section of the bike?

    [​IMG]

    It is the plug in back that just terminates on a cap on the bike. I am guessing this is for an accessory that my bike does not have. Anyone know?

    Over this electronic mayhem. I find little joy in it. Need to get back to the mechanics of MechanicO. Hey, it his name!
  10. Reaver

    Reaver How Did I Get Here?

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    :eek1

    I watched in horror as you irreversibly and methodically performed the lobotomy. I know you're the pioneer on that and I don't doubt your abilities. I was just as nervous taking my instruments apart and hoping it worked out.

    That cap is the terminating resistor for the alarm you don't have. Don't leave the cap off!

    Good luck and thanks for detailing your efforts.
  11. dpm

    dpm Been here awhile

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    well, you disconnected the pump motor, the valve solenoids, and the pressure sensor that operates the brakelights. I can see why it wouldn't be happy...
  12. FinTec

    FinTec Been here awhile

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    The horror!! Ha, agree, one perfectly good ABS down the drain. But I learned a lot and now have a direction. The value of that is not easy to validate.

    Reaver: no worries, plugged back in. But out of curiosity, if I don't have the alarm system, what happens if I leave that unplugged? Still disable the bike? Or somewhere in a high mnt. top in Bavaria a red light flashes and a bunch of German engineers start yelling?

    dpm: dang, sounds like I should have consulted with you first :huh
  13. Reaver

    Reaver How Did I Get Here?

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    The cap has a resistor in it to complete a circuit for some reason. If you leave it off it'll probably cause your instruments to flash in whatever drawer you stuffed them in. :D

    Dunno really. I'm sure it's not a show stopper. Too easy. That's where the mice live all winter (if not in the airbox) and my wires were chewed off. Don't remember finding a code stored.

    Try it and report back. It's not like there won't be streams of other codes already. :evil

    Actually, the TPMS box also houses the alarm, and the wiring harnesses are the same for the 700/800 so it might even be for that.
  14. omekim

    omekim Adventurer

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    The terminating resistor in the little cap is for the CAN bus -- the actual CAN communication network that connects the dash, underseat and alarm/tpm computers. (and as we've been exploring, possibly the ABS unit).

    The network is wired as a bus (just like one would wire a power bus); two long wires run the length of the bike with computers spliced into each wire at various points along the length. Removing the termination resistor will muck up the electrical properties of this communication network, making the signals/messages on the CAN bus more difficult for the controllers to understand. Think of it as damping the echo/reflection off the end of the wires. See picture/description here:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CAN_bus#Architecture
    [​IMG]
    (if the bike actually has a star topology you'd still need a resistor at the end of every spoke)

    When you plug in the alarm unit, the resistor is inside the unit. Without the unit, you still need to terminate the bus, so they locate the resistor in the cap. There will be another termination resistor at the other end of the bus inside the dashboard computer. Without the termination resistor the controllers may or may not throw communication errors.
  15. wipe-out

    wipe-out Been here awhile

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    Fin, what's up, what's happening with your bike? Tire-threads and such start appearing up top, Mechanico to the rescue!
  16. TR5ESU

    TR5ESU Been here awhile

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    Wow, this thread is amazing. I just found it thanks to the bump from wipe-out.
    Makes me want to change professions! Ditch software engineering and get a CNC machine.. looks so much fun!
    Subscribed!
  17. FinTec

    FinTec Been here awhile

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    My apologies for the "off air" time. I have a business "thing" going down right now with my company so have been VERY occupied with that. However, should be wrapped up tomorrow and then I will continue this build report. :clap

    To come:

    1. Have some good news and the solution for brake lights
    2. Finish up mounting the custom radiator
    3. Report on the massive wiring changes I just did that relocated battery down behind engine. WARNING: pics of irresponsible modifications of main wiring harness.
  18. Stinkyb

    Stinkyb GS"eh" rider

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    Love to see craftsman applying their trade, this is going to be an amazing end product.

    You got my attention:lurk
  19. FinTec

    FinTec Been here awhile

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    So, back at it...

    With the failed attempt to modify the ABS unit to not freak out the CANBus, I decided to just wire a stand alone brake circuit. In the old days, an easy task as it was just a matter of dealing with a duel element bulb in the brake light housing. But with the 800, the brake light has a single set of LED lights that are Pule Width Modulated (PWM) to give you various level of light. So I know I needed a relay for starters. All those damn 5 prong 12v relays are SO huge and I am dealing with 2-5 amps at best with these brake lights. And these huge 12v relays are rated for up to 50 amps with huge gauge wires on them. The brake light has what is about 22 gauge on it. So I was able to find a small 12v relay

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    However, it was not water proof. So I cut up an small plastic box that end mills come in

    [​IMG]

    and then put the relay in that and filled it with some epoxy to pot it

    [​IMG]

    Then I added a nice plug on the end (more on that and wiring later)

    [​IMG]

    Now the trick was finding a way to PWM the brake light so it was dim for "no brake" and bright for "brake on". I found this perfect little PWM drive unit for LED at Superbrightleds.com. Take in 5-25 volts and has various levels of dimming.

    [​IMG]

    The challenge was the wiring of all this and I had to test several versions before I figured it out. electronics are not my strong suit. The key to this was the relay stays charged with brakes off so the brake LED sees the "dimmer" power. Once brakes are applied (our brake circuit is normally closed), the relay collapses and Non-dimmed (full 12v) goes to the brake lights. Here is a wiring diagram I made to help me wire this up and if anyone ever wants to do this themselves

    [​IMG]

    I cut into the rear brake light unit here, which is also the power for the system. In reality, you could get power from any 12v source, but the brakes power sourse now sees full 12v all the time so just easy to use that here

    [​IMG]

    Here is everything wired up

    [​IMG]

    And then all tucked into place

    [​IMG]

    Works great. I can even change the level of dimming for the riding light if I want. Heck, I can even pulse it or strobe it as well with the control unit. I did also seal/pot the ends of the PWM unit just in case. So everything is water proof and should be hassle free....and CANbus free. :clap
  20. FinTec

    FinTec Been here awhile

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    Ah, I just realized I forgot to show the mounting of the radiator. So in this case, it is such a tight squeeze and so many weird angles and tie-in points it is better to go into "sculpt" mode and just kind of see what you can make to make it work. So it was a lot of "model, print, cut, and see how it looks". I model a bracket, print it out, cut it out, and place it up against the part and see if it works. So in this picture you can see I have made a lot of lower left brackets to try

    [​IMG]

    Here is the final bracket being tested in place

    [​IMG]

    So I was going to do this for all for corners of the radiator. However, once I had the hoses hooked up they added so much rigidity and support to the upper right corner, I did not do a bracket here.

    Same shots of the mounted radiator

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    So a note here on mounting radiators: you must isolate the radiator via rubberized types mounts. You can see I have these in a few of the shots. Radiators use such thin aluminum in their construction, if you rigid mount it to the bike you run the risk of cracking it.

    Everything fits, even the jumbo fan I have mounted. And the narrower profile (left to right) is very nice and really slims the bike down.