Antigravity Batteries...Game Changing NEW Lithium Battery

Discussion in 'Vendors' started by Antigravity, Feb 13, 2018.

  1. Antigravity

    Antigravity Been here awhile

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    So the key difference between a Lead/Acid Charger and lithium are not super significant, but enough difference that we can't recommend Lead/Acid for Lithium for a few conservative safety reasons. For example if a Lithium Battery is severely over discharged into say the 6v~8v range ow lower, at these low voltages it DOES NOT like a fast charge. At these lower voltages it can cause the lithium cells to over-heat if they subjected to a higher voltage and amperage charging being pushed into them (like a lead/acid charger would do). In the worst case scenario this fast charging at low voltages can cause Thermal Runaway where the Lithium Battery melts down. So a Lithium specific Charger's profile will gently massage a Lithium Battery back up to higher voltage and to a point where lithium can then take a fast charge again.. usually about 10.5v to 11v then go into regular charging. But a Lead/Acid charger profile does not consider this and usually just puts the charging rate at a higher voltage and amperage right off the bat, so this can cause a thermal runaway incident with certain chargers and depending how low the lithium battery is on voltage. So also this can happen with Jump Starting or Bump Starting a Lithium Battery that is say at 6~8v or below in your motorcycle then you jump start the bike and it starts charging at a higher voltage and amp rate not knowing the Lithium Battery is severely discharged. This can happen on the earlier NON-PROTECTED versions of these Lithium Batteries.

    Our RE-START battery will not allow the Battery to get to a point of server over-discharge so this type of incident can't really happen to a RE-START battery since they have a low-voltage cut-off to prevent a severe over-discharge. But the other issue is that Lead/ACid battery Chargers often, "cycle" the battery continually at the end of the charging cycle... meaning the cheap trickle chargers like battery tender jr's just keep trying to charge the battery and lithium does not like that either. A lithium charger will stop the continual end of charge cycle charging that a Lead/Acid Charger does. A lead acid charger usually charges more because Lead/Acid has a property of "self-discharge" ... so the battery actually will discharge quite fast due to the chemical reaction between lead and acid. Whereas Lithium will not self-discharge but a very tiny amount per month (unless the vehicle has a drain on it). So anyway in the long run we just want the Lithium to be charged by the correct charger to get the longest , safest life without an extraneous issue coming into play like a charger that was not intended for it.

    Worst case scenario you could put a lead/acid charger on a Lithium Battery for 15 minutes if it is above 10.5v and just needs a little bump to get the battery going and starting a bike. But we don't even like saying that because people may forget and leave it on and potentially ruin their battery. So we always say "use a Lithium Charger".

    As far as the Cycle Electric. I am not necessarily familiar with that model. They should be able to recommend if it is compatible with Lithium. We have not tested it. It should not be charging above 14.6v. So I'm sorry I could not give more input on this. In general most stock and quality after market systems will work. And the problem with OLDER R/R is that these pre-1990 Voltage regulators are damaged by now, and mainly the only bikes we have issues with are the older Japanese bikes people are turining into Bobbers and such, and the older Harleys that people Customize. These 25-30 year old voltage regulator are toast and sending out 25v to the battery sometimes.. and that can easily cause the Thermal Runaway condition I speak of ..... add to that these guys are usually using our SMALL CASE models that do not have the protections of the RE-START Models we sell. So our Users Manuals go in depth into that because there are so many modifying these older bikes and not knowing the voltage regulartor is bad.
    #21
  2. JRWooden

    JRWooden Homeless motorcycle vagabond ... and ... loving it

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    Thank you VERY much for your thoughtful and detailed reply!
    I think I now understand exactly what's going on here!
    I've monitored my R/R and the voltage never goes above ~14.3V volts.

    I'll be buying one of the AT12-BS-HD RE-START batteries for my bike while the sale is on!
    Having the re-start feature and dropping a significant amount of weight high-up on my bike makes it a deal for me :-)
    #22
  3. JRWooden

    JRWooden Homeless motorcycle vagabond ... and ... loving it

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    Got my order placed @ 20% off, and THANKS for the free bluetooth ADV flashligh ...
    I'm not sure what that means, but I'm looking forward to it :deal
    #23
  4. Travman

    Travman Long timer Supporter

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    So I have a question on one of the micro starts. I have the small Sport model purchased in September, 2017. Bought this for emergencies when traveling and never had a reason to use it until recently. A few months ago I tried to start my sons car and had no luck. I took this as my user error. Then teaching an MSF class this past weekend, I had 2 dead bikes and tried to use it again, this time reading the manual. The Sport would not provide any juice to start a 125cc bike. Jumped these from another bike and they started fine. The flashlight on the Sport works and it will charge my phone, but it will not start a vehicle.

    So my questions. Has anyone experienced this with the Sport micro start? How does Antigravity handle warranty issues for a micro start product that is almost 2 years old but was just recently used?
    #24
  5. JRWooden

    JRWooden Homeless motorcycle vagabond ... and ... loving it

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    I have an XP-10 and have used it numerous times to start v-8's toyota 6-cyl, BMW 1200GS and some other stuff.

    Good connections are key, and on the XP-10 there is a small push-button on the side of the adapter block that I push togive more power to the dead vehicle.

    It has always worked except in one case on a v-8 where the host battery was dead as hell...
    #25
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  6. Antigravity

    Antigravity Been here awhile

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    Hi Travman, there's a couple things I'd be happy to go over and see if we can diagnose where the problem might be and what may have happened but typically the Sport should have no problem starting the bikes...the car may vary depending on engine size and the scenario but please email me at chad@antigravitybatteries.com and we'll make sure to get it sorted out for you. It may be something with the clamps as they function a little differently than the larger XP-10 unit Jrwooden mentioned. Those interested, please check out the sale thread for this weekend on the Microstarts.
    -Chad
    #26
  7. 500Rush

    500Rush n00b

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    15724750894541554860019889000867.jpg Hi, I just received my ATZ - 7 restart battery in the mail and I have a battery tender junior 800 lead acid or lithium charger that I thought I could use.. is it okay to use this charger with the restart battery? Thank you! 15724752558025642307906661001488.jpg
    #27
  8. Antigravity

    Antigravity Been here awhile

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    Yes, I can only assume Battery Tender would do this correctly, but I would just suggest not charging the battery unless needed. What bike it is in?

    I'm saying this because I have several bikes mostly KTMs and I rarely have to charge them. I have an exc 350, SXF450... But if you have something like a Suzuki DR then you would need to put it on a charger a bit since those have very fast parasitic drains. My point is just to let you know if you don't need to put it on a charger and your bike holds a charge, and is starting fine. Then don't bother charging until you need to. Chargers actually cycle the battery which is fine to a degree, but leaving it on full time is not the best thing.
    #28
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  9. 500Rush

    500Rush n00b

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    Than
    Thank you for fast reply! I have a 2018 500 exc-f with no extra drains other than the usual computer drains. I won't charge it unless I have to do so, thanks! Also should I bring the battery in if it's under 45°f, a regular cold night temp here? & about near freezing? I'm on the central coast of CA so temp can drop to to 32°-33f sometimes. Thanks for any cold weather advice and recommend charger (only when necessary ) for AG batteries.
    #29
  10. Antigravity

    Antigravity Been here awhile

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    I don't think 45 will effect it all that much... but a single cylinder 500 can be a harder start.... but if is seem a little sluggish in very cold temps just do a couple stabs on the starter, but not full start attempts, a few times over the course of 20-30 seconds... that will self warm the battery quicker than just leaving a light on for a minute... that self warms the battery internally then get the power back since the cold causes resistance. I live in Ojai Ca and go it gets to about 25 at time and I have started the 350 easy... I did that as a test a number of times leaving it outside like that.

    The ATZ7 might be a bit tight fit but you can put it in. KTM changed the box a little from the previous earlier years. Also let me know if any issues at all because we can swap you to an AG-801 if any issue at all or give you a refund if you not happy with it completely. But all should be good.
    #30
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  11. 500Rush

    500Rush n00b

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    Thank you very much for that cold weather testing info! I started the bike with the ATZ-7, definitely an upgrade from stock and the fit is tight but perfect. It should be good.., awesome startup compared to stock, so fast. I was pleasantly surprised. I'll report back if any issues, I don't expect any. Thanks again!
    #31
  12. Antigravity

    Antigravity Been here awhile

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    great... any question later let me know...
    #32
  13. Chadzu

    Chadzu Lost In Space

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    Quick question about the small case 4 cell that I am using in one of my bikes. The bike was left unused for the better part of a year and I just spent the time to clean the carb and get it running again. The voltage had dropped to 8v on the battery. I started the bike and let the bikes charging system charge the battery. The battery voltage came back up and seems to be fairly stable at just over 13v.
    Do you think I damaged the battery by allowing it to fall to 8v?
    #33
  14. houlster

    houlster Been here awhile Supporter

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    I like the restart and over/under charge protection. Any plans for a YTX14S size replacement? None of the xxx12's have more than 8ah capacity and the next size up xxx20's are physically too large. Looking for something in the OEM 11-14 ah range.
    #34
  15. JRWooden

    JRWooden Homeless motorcycle vagabond ... and ... loving it

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    Did you see the: Antigravity AT12-BS-HD RE-START Battery ?
    I picked one up earlier this year when they had a 20% off sale.
    The "HD" model did it for me I have it in an F650GS (twin-cyl) for 6 months now ... works famously.
    #35
  16. houlster

    houlster Been here awhile Supporter

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    Yeah, that's the 8ah I referred to. Might be worth a shot, but still don't like giving up capacity.
    #36
  17. Antigravity

    Antigravity Been here awhile

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    ON that one you are right on the cusp of damage or not... to be blunt 8v is the minimum voltage per all manufacturers for Lifepo4... but that is at the very minimum. We tell people never to go below 10.5 to be really conservative. So I have not real hard answer for you. I cannot say how stable the battery is now unfortunately. I would have preffered the battery be taken up to 10.5v on a Lithium charger so it would be massaged up to that voltage then fast charged by the bike. But we have seen batteries come back and do fine in a similar situation. Sorry I just don't have a hard answer on that one, but see if it keeps holding a charge now (if you don't have fast parasitic drains from somewhere else... and if its starting the bike fine.... and if it is... then it pretty much still good.

    If it sat in in a bike about a year I assume it a dirt bike with very low parasitic draw if any. So might all work out fine. If you see swelling discontinue the use.
    #37
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  18. Antigravity

    Antigravity Been here awhile

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    Hey Houlster,

    Just so you know you would not be giving up any amp hours in terms of use in the bike.... A real 8Ah of Lithium Battery will outperform a 12-14Ah Lead/Acid battery in most every regard. Way better starting in, it would give you almost double the starts of an equivalent Amp Hour Lead/Acid Battery. But on very low Amp Draws the Lead acid will be about equivalent or a tad better. But lead acid is taken down dramatically more than lithium on the start atttempt because lithium uses much less of its capacity to start a bike than lead/Acid... So its not very far off.

    Now in all honestly you will get LESS usable amp Hours with our RE-START battery since it limits the full use of the 8 Amp Hours so it can RE-START your bike... BUT you will get the safety of knowing you can't damage the battery accidentally by forgetting to turn off some accessory on the bike, and if you did do something silly you can at least get started and not be stranded in the middle of nowhere, or even in the hotel parking lot. So in most cases you would never notice the RE-START battery at all but when you need it, it'ss there, and I can tell you not only from personal experience but from all the Rider who have written to us.... one time using it and they are thankful they went that route.

    The last thing I will bring up is we make a YTX12-24 model of battery ... it does not have re-start, it does not have the protections, but it does have cell balancing. But it has a crazy 15 REAL AMP HOURS in it , it is the smallest most powerful and highest capacity Battery made in the YTX12 Case format. It is used in Large V-Twin Custom bikes since they need to turn over those large hi-compression motors , and it was the GO-TO battery for the Hi Performance Mustang Crowd and the Tuner Cars, and we have had a good few use it in ADV bikes... but we have not marketed it so much for ADV because the RE-START is our flagship technology. https://antigravitybatteries.com/products/starter-batteries/oem-size/ytx12-24/
    #38
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  19. BackpackerMoto

    BackpackerMoto Outcast

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    About a year ago, I phoned up Antigravity to discuss my upcoming solo trip to Turkey, Russia, Kazakhstan, Mongolia and Siberia. By chance, I spoke to Chad and told him about my expedition, and most specifically, that I’d be riding alone to some of the most remote regions on the planet. I wanted to get his input on which AG model to get, and also if he had any concerns about his product given my mission parameters. He was super helpful and patient as I peppered him with a number of questions.

    Given that I loathe the notion of shilling a product just to get one for free, I didn’t try to schmooze a battery out of Chad. Instead I thanked him for his time and expertise, hung up, and then scooted to the AG website to take advantage of their Black Friday sale to purchase an ATZ-7 RESTART for my DR-Z400.

    Now that I’m back from my trip, here’s what I’ll say about that product in a brutally harsh environment of thousands upon thousands of off-road miles, oftentimes in places where there were no roads at all. And no, I didn’t take a battery charger with me.

    It’s difficult to explain to people who don’t ride alone to isolated locations, just how critically important it is to have reliable equipment that never gives you a problem. Your bike is your life. I had many immensely challenging days in the mud, many days of multiple river crossings (28 crossings in one particularly soggy day), so there were plenty of times when I mercilessly flogged that battery 100, 150 times a day.

    It never missed a beat. Always fired the bike straight to life. I’ll say this: when you’re standing in a waist-deep river of water that very recently was ice and snow, trying to powerwalk your bike across without falling in, those are the moments when you need your equipment to work, every time. The Antigravity battery performed flawlessly.

    I don’t bother writing reviews except on the rarest of occasions when I’m so impressed that it motivates me to get to the keyboard. This was one of those occasions. Thanks to Chad for his initial consultation and for a product that held up to the rigors of the Sibirsky Extreme.

    - Backpacker Moto / Jeff

    [​IMG]
    #39
  20. Chadzu

    Chadzu Lost In Space

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    This is a little out there. I was wondering if it would be better to have two small case 4 cell batteries. One used for starting and the other held in reserve for emergency consultation. Or just go with a larger restart. This is a 200 miles from nowhere and a bear is going to eat me if my bike wont start sort of thing.
    #40