Any guesses on when it will be possible to take an Electric motorcycle on adventure travel?

Discussion in 'Electric Motorcycles' started by ridego, May 28, 2018.

  1. longslowdistance

    longslowdistance Long timer Supporter

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    It works great, but only on April 1.
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  2. ex250mike

    ex250mike Long timer

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    :imaposer
    #42
  3. TavisB

    TavisB @TavisB

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    Y'all need some thermodynamics in your lives. Lol.

    Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk
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  4. Teckel

    Teckel Seriously?

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    Does that mean you don’t know, or you didn’t understand the question?
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  5. longslowdistance

    longslowdistance Long timer Supporter

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    It means we know and the answer is it wouldn't work, not even close.
    The shortest possible answer was provided by TavisB: The immutable laws of physics include these: there is no free lunch, and there is no cheap lunch. Your post (and if it was in jest I confess you got me) proposed a lunch that not only is free but gives you 10x money back for eating.
    There are similarly optimistic posts on the electric motorcycle forum about magical solar panel paint or mini solar panels that would power a bike. In other words, 5-25 watt input would provide 1000-15000 watt output. The math just doesn't add up.

    That's why we need a flux capacitor, or Mr. Fusion, or dilithium crystals.
    #45
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  6. Teckel

    Teckel Seriously?

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    Thanks for your answer, it was not in jest. I guess I’m just showing my ignorance of the subject here.

    I am not an electrical engineer or any kind of engineer so my knowledge of thermodynamics is kinda slim.

    I was a kid once, and I had a Schwinn bicycle with a little generator with a wheel that rubbed up against the tire while the bike was in motion that created enough juice to light up a headlight and a taillight. Primitive, I know, and I’m not suggesting the same thing for a motorcycle in that form. However, there is a wheel that turns and two forks that are stationary, so why couldn’t some kind of rotor/stator design create even a small amount of juice to return to the battery? Isn’t regenerative braking something along this same line?
    #46
  7. longslowdistance

    longslowdistance Long timer Supporter

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    Regenerative braking is an important part of hybrids and electrics in stop and go traffic. But not 100% of the energy recaptured, not even close. It's that "no free lunch and no cheap lunch" thing. Even in some optimized future of engineering breakthroughs, and add unicorns and fairy dust, still some energy always is lost. In more steady state riding, it's even worse. You can't siphon off energy as you go and keep even most of it. It works OK to power a headlight or a cell phone but that energy output is minuscule compared to moving a motorcycle.

    Think of it this way:
    A cell phone battery requires only a few volts and milliamps to charge. How much does the cell phone battery weigh? A portable solar panel can charge up a wilderness hiker's phone in several hours. The generator on a bicycle probably provides more, but in the same range. Enough to power a small light bulb or two.
    The battery in a Zero weighs 180 lbs. It can't be charged at all with such low current. It requires a minimum of 110 v and 12 amps to charge at all, and at that bare minimum current takes about 9 hours to fully charge.
    #47
  8. Teckel

    Teckel Seriously?

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    Okay, I think I understand.

    Thanks.
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  9. ex250mike

    ex250mike Long timer

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    I'm not a smart guy, hell I dropped out of college. But, this is 6th grade science class stuff.

    For the joke about the alternator. I used to work with a guy that swore his granpa put an alternator on an electric golf cart and it would run forever. It was some kind of redneck family moment of pride that they outsmarted the rest of the world. When I explained why it couldn't possibly work he still swore that it did.

    This thread reminded me of that.
    #49
  10. RT66AZ

    RT66AZ Been here awhile

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    Couldn't read all the responses so forgive me if I re-rant. Umm how much of an adventure is never being more that a couple of hours from a recharging station ON THE GRID. Why in the hell would you ride an electric bike with a hack and a generator....duh I'm not polluting except when I'm recharging (good luck sleeping at night) or ride a day, spend a day (or more) recharging from a small solar panel. I don't see an electric adventure bike capable of any "adventurous distance" in a reasonable amount of time, at a reasonable cost, until such time as you can say "Beam me up Scotty, the final drive took a crap"
    #50
  11. EvrythingAwesom

    EvrythingAwesom Long timer

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    Sorry, but you're wrong.

    Lookup 2007 or 2008 .. the Swiss-student-made SolarTaxi .. nuff said.

    Several people have already crossed the US with solar panel rigs on 2 wheels.

    As far the Zero electric moto, it's plainly too inefficient, and the wind drag is the main cause of watts-draw. So, look at the contests won by el-moto's with fairings.

    The full info about these very efficient gear will be found on YouTube when you look for working ..

    - Adams Motors
    - No back-emf motor/generators
    - Non-cogging motor/generators

    Chinese makers discovered some fundamental and profound electrical phenomenon that I saw in their products, starting circa 2010.

    Starting circa 2007-2008, hub motors that did not heat up matched with controllers made a sea-change in ebikes/escooters. Prior to that, motors would burn up if not run at the optimum RPM range, or over-revved.

    The key was "non-cogging" motors - every inventors' dream - was put into commercial production.

    All of the above comes from personal experience.

    In Asia, they don't care about Ludicrous Mode on their ebikes. They want fewer amps drawn, not more batteries, more speed, more range, ad nauseam. They ride ewheels to keep pollution down, not for Adv rides.

    My own efforts have been also to keep stayin' alive on 2-wheels cuz that's not easy with cages mostly trying to kills bikers.

    With solar panels now at 22% efficiency, a square meter of panels is 70 watts. European panels can charge on cloudy days, too.

    Nothing is impossible. We've pulled ebikes with solar panels and some special electronics. No big deal, for serious hobbyists.

    Instead of blue sky ranting, just MAKE. That's real.

    I remember once a IEEE thread flaming a group that had already shown car-gear that that the IEEE engineers ("Law of Thermody..or somesuch") said was impossible had been repeatedly made by musicians. Been there, done that.

    Will not respond to attacks, so bye bye to this thread.
    #51
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  12. EvrythingAwesom

    EvrythingAwesom Long timer

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    I purchased tiny LED lights powered by 1" approx. wind turbines, with self-adhesive tape. From Ebay, circa 2007. They work fine.

    My students enjoyed lighting them up by blowing hard on the wind turbines.
    #52
  13. RT66AZ

    RT66AZ Been here awhile

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    While yes people have crossed the USofA on an electric bike. But look at the time factor involved. Look at the hassle of planning refueling. Look at the route you have to take ...high population density all the way...otherwise you hit a bunch of hills or a strong headwind on a long section between plugins....you're screwed and it's not like you can carry an electricity can and thumb a ride to the next station and back. Yes you can go long distances on an electric bike just as you can on a trials bike.... but it would take forever. And unless you are recharging by solar and or wind only you are still polluting a bunch....just not in your backyard....somebody else's, by the coal powered powered plant, or the nuke .....AND.....if loud pipes save lives....you gonna die :)
    #53
  14. Schmokel

    Schmokel Key to Happiness: Low Expectations

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  15. TS888

    TS888 Deer dodger Supporter

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    Oh no! Have we cursed the coal fired electric generators with decibel testing? They're barely hanging on now, bigger mufflers could be the last nail! :pep :imaposer
    #55
  16. longslowdistance

    longslowdistance Long timer Supporter

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    Well thanks for clearing this all up.

    I had been oppressed by the yoke of the fake news of the laws of physics. Nice to see a new world, where whatever we want is possible.
    #56
  17. T.S.Zarathustra

    T.S.Zarathustra Been here awhile

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    I think people have been making the answer to your question too complicated. The simple answer is that generating electricity will create drag. If you start to generate energy from the motion, you will need more energy to maintain the motion.
    There is a law of energy that states that "Energy is not created or destroyed, it is converted". There is another law of energy that states "No energy conversion is 100% efficient". So the net effect of generating electricity from the motion of the bike will be negative and actually reduce the range.
    #57
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  18. Teckel

    Teckel Seriously?

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    Thanks for your answer, it makes sense.
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  19. RowBust

    RowBust Been here awhile

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    The world solar challenge has been held every year since 1987, it is a 3200km race for specially built cars from Darwin to Adelaide. Cars are powered by solar panels only and reach very impressive speeds
    #59
  20. ctromley

    ctromley Long timer

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    While that is in fact true, it bears mentioning that the 'cars' they race are every bit as practical for everyday use as an F1 would be. Frighteningly expensive, generally quite cobby because they've been hand-built and revised many times, unbelievably lightweight and therefore rather fragile. Since aerodynamics, weight and solar surface area are the prime directives, everything has been sacrificed to them. For example, some of these rides have very interesting ergonomics....

    It's a wonderful exercise, but has little immediate application to road vehicles and less for off-road. The bottom line is that if you have a desire to do real adventure riding on an EM and expect to make regular use of solar panels for charging, plan on it being much more of an adventure than anyone has done before.

    Now, if you redefine your goals a bit and call it nomadic camping, where you spend some time (days) at each stop to charge up while you take in the local atmosphere, then you might have something. To me that's not adventure riding, which implies a destination and a time frame. Nomadic camping is more like having nothing more than a vague direction in mind, which could easily change, and little or no time frame.

    It actually sounds like it would be pretty attractive to some people.
    #60
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