Are you killing your lithium batteries?

Discussion in 'Electric Motorcycles' started by voltsxamps, May 27, 2018.

  1. Andrew

    Andrew Optimus Primer Super Moderator Super Supporter

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    Yes, I learned about Tesla. And I think the Nissan Leaf is the only electric car on the US market that does not have thermal battery management, and as a result its batteries wear out, lose capacity, faster than others. I imagine any smart solution will route coolant between the cells... possibly even into and through the cells. But at least wrapping the battery in a blanket of coolant, driven by small pump through a radiator, would be a big improvement.
    #21
  2. chasbmw

    chasbmw Long timer

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    If you are not going to use your lithium battery over the winter, store it at less than 80% charge, more than that and it may reduce the life of the battery.

    Too little is also not good.......remove it from the bike so it doesn’t get depleted by any random parasitic drains
    #22
  3. foxtrapper

    foxtrapper Long timer

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    Based on nothing but the three iPhones we bought at the same time (I, the spouse, and the spawnling), I'm not seeing this.

    I tend to keep my phone topped up. It's on a charger much of the time. Spawnling and spouse both tend to run theirs nearly dead far more frequently than I do.

    Their batteries are in significantly worse shape than mine now, over a year out. Spousal unit has already replaced her battery. Spawnling is planning to replace his. Mine is chugging along just fine, with much less degradation than theirs.

    Not claiming some great "proof", just an observation.
    #23
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  4. chasbmw

    chasbmw Long timer

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    Lithium batteries as supplied to bikes don’t have any type of battery management system.....what these systems do is to reserve battery capacity at the top and the bottom of the range, so you cannot either overcharge or let the battery get too depleted.

    This system was used by Tesla to give their customers ‘extra range’ when faced by an emergency evacuation due to a hurricane (last year I think)

    I haven’t a clue what Apple do, but I would expect that an iPhone will have a BMS
    #24
  5. voltsxamps

    voltsxamps Advolturer

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    Running Li-ion batteries dead is very hard on them and should be recharged before it falls below 20%. The longer a battery stays at a low state of charge, the less likely it is to hold a charge or retain its full capacity.

    Lithium ion batteries require very different charging maintenance vs old Ni-Cad, which were recommended to let deplete.
    #25
  6. Crilly

    Crilly Long timer Super Supporter

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    That is right. Witch is why I but mine on the charger as soon as I get home.
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  7. MtnRoamer

    MtnRoamer Been here awhile Supporter

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    The first and only time I put a lithium motorcycle battery on a lithium tender it went from being a bit weak to being completely unable to start the bike (the bike was about 6 months old so the battery should have had plenty of life left in it). I have been hesitant to connect any of my lithium motorcycle batteries to a lithium charger since.
    #27
  8. pdxmotorhead

    pdxmotorhead Long timer

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    Just as some observational data points,, My 2013 Honda Fit EV has 52K miles, I am the second leasee
    I use between 25 and 50% of the charge daily.
    It doesn't have liquid cooled batteries, it does have a fan and air duct systems that blows air around the cells.
    It gets about 75 miles range at 65 degrees F or better, at 40F its got about 37 miles range.
    Takes about 1.5 hours after I get home with my Level II charger to charge back from my commute.

    8 more months on the lease and its off to EV Valhalla.. (Honda won't sell them .. they were compliance cars.)
    Kinda sad,, its a good utility vehicle and great for my teenager I know she can't get too far away..
    Plus charging is like a buck to a buck and a half at most charging stations so she can afford it..
    I wish I could get them to just sign a run-to-break lease on it ..
    #28
  9. RedRocket

    RedRocket Yeah! I want Cheesy Poofs

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    Way back when I got Prius training from Toyota the way they explained change level being shown wasn’t actually 0-100%, it was really more like 10-80% .
    #29
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  10. RedRocket

    RedRocket Yeah! I want Cheesy Poofs

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    Hit up your local dealer soon and get in line for a Clarity EV. Same $200 payments
    #30
  11. voltsxamps

    voltsxamps Advolturer

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    I also understand that 0-100% in a Tesla is something closer to an actual 10-90% based on Tesla owners who have driven past zero, reporting they were able to go additional 15-30 miles, depending on speed, temperature, battery size, etc. Many of the Japanese cars I’ve owned also allowed me to drive past “empty” while the mustang I used to own would promptly run out as the gas gauge just touches the “E”. (learned that one the hard way)

    Example of one guy who filmed himself intentionally went 14 miles past zero in a Model S with an unknown amount of power to spare as he pulled into a charging station:



    Personally, I wouldn’t make it a habit to run my batteries down that low, but good battery management and chemistry compensates for a lot of real world abuse we riders/drivers sometimes put them through.

    Though I have around 300 miles of range at ~65mph in my Model S if needed, (I’ve driven from LA to Vegas on a single charge) I usually only charge it to around 60% as it’s more than enough for my daily driving with some “spirited driving” thrown in ;) and often arrive home with 30-40% left; my goal being to average around 50% if you’re attempting to maximize battery health, but Elon says it’s cool if you want to charge it as much as 90% without worry and enjoy driving it as you’d like as there isn’t much fluctuation in battery degradation in most charging/driving scenarios, with an exception being supercharging to 100% daily over a long term.

    Each manufacturer (including cellphone & laptop manufacturers) builds a buffer at the top and bottom to help maintain battery health and account for the occasional oops moments.

    The general rule I use for myself and share with others when estimating how much range is needed is to take total distance needed to travel and subtract 10%-20% depending on how your manufacturer has set their buffers. Knowing I have roughly a 10% buffer built in, I factor in an additional 10% for good measure as my absolute minimum range needed to reach destinations. ie., if destination is 100 miles away, I leave with at least 110 miles of range. But since there are supercharger stations spaced apart every 75 miles(and hundreds of L2’s in between) on average in the US, and the navigation automatically recommends which stations to stop at and for how long as needed, I have very little range anxiety. It even tells me how much battery I’m estimated to have when I arrive at each charge point, giving me the choice of which stations I want to stop at and for how long.

    In time, electric motorcycles wil too soon have access to high speed charging networks. The addition of an onboard nav or an integrated app to automatically calculate where stops are recommended means less range anxiety and more fun.
    #31
  12. pdxmotorhead

    pdxmotorhead Long timer

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    Owning a pure EV for a year has pretty much killed any charge anxiety for me,, Its my 30 mile 1 way car, which covers the entire city.. and it does it for a buck or so per charge,, .11 cents KWH here.. When I'm going farther,, I get in my wife's completely soulless GMC terrain and drive it..

    The terrain has the same engine as a Slingshot..
    #32
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