Armacor vs. SuperFabric

Discussion in 'Equipment' started by MrFurious, Dec 9, 2011.

  1. cblais19

    cblais19 Long timer

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    There's no such thing as a "standard" GorePro - there's a whole bunch of different deniers of fabric they offer; everything from 60d for the Outdoors world on up to whatever the Armacor is (at least 600d). "4s" of abrasion resistance is way more then pretty much every other reinforcement textile out there, although that IS the superfabric patch as an overlay + the standard fabric underneath. Standard 500d cordura evaporates <0.5s in Motocap testing. 1680d "balllistic nylon" overlays don't make it to 2. Of the textiles they've tested so far, the strongest single layer one as far as I know is the S1 fabric Dainese uses.
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  2. Valentino

    Valentino Been here awhile

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    Insightful video! The guy crashed at low speed, yet his $2000 suit holed in several places. I wouldn't be happy with my purchase, and God knows how this suit would fare in a higher speed crash.

    His Badlands pants shredded! It was the Forma boot that saved his lower leg. He lauds his Klim gloves for remaining intact – but they didn't touch the ground because he kept hold of the bars.

    Me too. Next time – finances permitting! – I'm going to check out Hideout Hi-Pro or Hideout System Concept gear.

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  3. cblais19

    cblais19 Long timer

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    It holed exactly where you'd expect - directly in the impact zone where the weight of his body ground it into the pavement (the shoulder), and the pants (which are a single layer of ~500d cordura outside of the reinforcement areas) where the hard parts on his boots ground them into pavement as well. THe guy in the video sent in his accident report to Klim and got replacement gear free of charge per their guarantee.

    Hideout's waterproof stuff isn't nearly as well suited to American climate variability - and at the end of the day, staying mentally sharp because of good temperature regulation is going to be a much greater contributor to safety then having layers of aramid fibers behind a textile area. If you're a european that rarely sees the thermostat hit 30c, have at it.
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  4. Valentino

    Valentino Been here awhile

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    While I agree about the Klim stuff holing where you'd expect it, I'd be unhappy about a $2000 suit shredding :2cry in a low-speed crash.

    It doesn't fill me with confidence about Superfabric :hmmmmm but I think Klim isn't alone. I've seen a Rukka suit shredded in a low-speed crash, and its Armacor didn't fare any better than Superfabric. Would leather overlays be better? Doesn't the Klim Kodiac have leather overlays on the shoulders and elbows?

    I think Kilm deserves huge credit for replacing the suit under their crash warranty :thumb

    Hideout isn't suited to the US market because the company specializes in bespoke gear, and you need to be able to visit Hideout for this service. However – having visited Hideout myself – I know they can make gear for tremendous variability in climate. You merely specify what ventilation etc you wish. I realize this doesn't help fellow riders in the US :-) but it does show what's possible.
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  5. tillda

    tillda Adventurer

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    Do you by any means remember in what MotoCap test this was?
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  6. cblais19

    cblais19 Long timer

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    The Ducati leather jacket - it’s a Dainese product.
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  7. Peanut_Buttery

    Peanut_Buttery Been here awhile

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    The Ducati jacket (by Dainese) and the Dainese Fighter jacket use the same leather (DSkin 2.0) and materials (S1). Yet the Fighter jacket gets significantly lower scores for abrasion resistance:
    Why could this difference be?
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  8. tillda

    tillda Adventurer

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    I see. But these are leather jackets. That's not such a surprise even without any reinforcing materials.
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  9. cblais19

    cblais19 Long timer

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    The elastic fabric panels in top end leather jackets are probably some of the best textiles around, and that's what we're talking. You'll note that the house-branded stretch nylons and polyesters in RST/A* test much much better then most "reinforcement zones" on many of the textile jackets.

    @Peanut_Buttery I noticed that as well, and I kind of wondered if Dainese is using different materials under the same name of S1/ArrowFK? On the leather side, it might also be different thicknesses (1.1 - 1.3m) being selected.
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  10. MZ5

    MZ5 Been here awhile

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    I think this kind of thing shows that, while lab tests are helpful, reality is so much more variable than lab testing that one shouldn’t infer too much from a lab test of moto gear.

    I also wonder how much variability there would be in the tests if they tested 10 or 20 or 30 examples of each piece of gear.
    #30
  11. levain

    levain STILL Jim Williams Supporter

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    Now you've done it:lol3:lol3:lol3
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  12. cblais19

    cblais19 Long timer

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    Id love to know that too! However, even the very best test out there (FIM’s Racing certs) is Limited. MotoCap is likely to be the best we’re ever going to see as consumers, in that they independently purchase 2x of off the shelf products (1 small and 1 XL I think?), and use a number of samples from each zone/material to try and get a good average.

    If I was a billionaire I’d buy entire inventories and ship it to them for objective testing, but I’m not! Maybe you know one?
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  13. MZ5

    MZ5 Been here awhile

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    I still really like the standardized testing, but...
    (-:
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  14. Peanut_Buttery

    Peanut_Buttery Been here awhile

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    Imperfect quality control by Dainese could be why similar spec jackets get different test results.

    I read Dainese outsources its manufacturing to Tunisia and Eastern Europe (except Dainese Custom Works, which are still made in Italy). Who knows if one jacket’s made in Tunisia and the other in Poland?
    #34
  15. tgeliot

    tgeliot Topher

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    My anything-but-perfect memory says that the standardized abrasion resistance tests are slow and patient, and that means that the material doesn't heat up much. Very different from a zippy slide across the pavement! That's why even early textiles compared well against leather.
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  16. Valentino

    Valentino Been here awhile

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    “The abrasion resistance is good but – in a slide – you’ll get hot!” is what Kate from Hideout told me about Kevlar pants. I think it was British understatement about “hot”.
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  17. cblais19

    cblais19 Long timer

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    Isn’t that why some top end suits, including Hideout, put Kevlar knit panels in the primary impact zones (seat mainly)? You’d think an aramid reinforced garment would have that heat resistance built in to a degree...

    Also, you’ll note that most friction burn throughs like that superfabric patch in the video linked are directly over armor pads - hard to get scorched when you have a thick pad of armor (and inner lining) separating your skin.

    The 13595 / MotoCAP test protocol runs the abrasion belt at a speed meant to simulate a 120kph slide. Pretty sure that’s not “low and slow.” That sounds more like Martindale abrasion testing, which is what fabric companies use to give out wear guidelines for routine use like upholstery / bags and so forth.
    #37
  18. Valentino

    Valentino Been here awhile

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    Good question, and I don't know :dunnoCould the the Kevlar inner add abrasion resistance, while the outer leather prevents friction burns?
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  19. tillda

    tillda Adventurer

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    Btw, regarding heat...check this result of thermal burns through a RST racing leather jacket that was totally unaffected by the crash - >> time 2:23 <<
    (time 2:23)
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  20. Valentino

    Valentino Been here awhile

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    Ouch! I've read that motorcycle clothing fails in about 25-30% of crashes :pissed and that video shows it.

    After his boots failed – shown at 6:08 in the video – I wonder if his feet will ever recover fully. It looked like the seams burst in the palms of his race gloves too. I think they were RST gloves, but I find RST and 4SR logos hard to tell apart.

    It appears (at 2:32 in the video) that he had 4SR leathers when he crashed. He must have thought they did OK – despite the thermal burns – because he had new 4SR leathers afterwards. I wonder if made-to-measure leathers would have avoided those burns because of reduced friction thanks to a perfect fit, or perhaps nothing could?
    #40
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