At It Again....Thinstrom 650

Discussion in 'Japanese polycylindered adventure bikes' started by glitch_oz, Jul 26, 2007.

  1. stewy (Aus)

    stewy (Aus) searching for a ride

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    no it's it not possible to gain 300mm rear suspension travel at the rear, the front sprocket is mounted to low on the motor therefore when places a high spot of kink where the chain rests on the chain guard
  2. glitch_oz

    glitch_oz Long timer

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    Ohhh, someone with an LC4 and ideas of grafting a twin into it...
    If i'll ever come across an LC4 with a busted engine, can steal a 650 Versys/ ER6 donk...I'll give it a shot.

    The only thing that limits the Strom (incl. the ThinStroms) is the limited ground-clearance and low-spec suspension.
    Stewy is right ....250-300mm are just out of the question...it'd require a total frame re-jig.
    Definitely not a budget-built then...:lol3

    Shortening the rear (as done here) gets rid of the pillion seat and brings the luggage-weight forward....over the rear-axle, which is nice, very nice.
    BUT!!...this in return requires suspension work, as there's no "overhang" at the rear that creates inertia, even the stock shock is way too hard and harsh. Cost me a while to figure out why, but getting there.:huh

    Underseat fuel tank? Hmmmm...VERY little space and where's the heavy battery going to go?
    Perhaps with a K7 onwards there's a chance...as they lengthened the swingarm to accomodate the ABS.
    21" front? Not when using the stock triples, something with more offset would be needed, which then creates a longer wheelbase, slows down steering and cuts agility, one of the 650 strongsuits.
    It also stuffs up the whole geometry...things start to get messy.


    To wrap it all into one and be honest with myself (as I'd love THAT Strom to be exactly what YOU, and many others, want)....it'd be ludicrous to re-invent the whole thing.
    The LC4 is the far better bike for what you seem to use it, the Strom will never even get close, despite quite severe changes/ mads.

    You'd really have to start to built a new frame around that engine...or squeeze an ER6 parallel twin into a KTM chassis somehow (as the engine's significantly shorter).

    Running split radiators wouldn't be a problem though...plenty of usable stuff around, KTM and Honda sporties run split rads...or 2 small ones out of a scooter (Vespa 250IE), modding one of the header tanks.

    2-into1 pipe....the factory header setup is perfect. Good balance/ smooth/ max. horsepower.
    The reason that there are hardly any "full-systems" around, all the aftermarket offers are cans. They just couldn't get it any better.
  3. DaBit

    DaBit Been here awhile

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    I'll do some more study. That Russ S SV650 build is also awesome, and the key reason why I asked about the differences between the SV and DL frame geometry. They look fairly equal on pictures.

    Regarding the frontend: I'd rather replace the entire front with something from another (dirt)bike. Triples, forks, wheel. That's the most cost-effective way.

    Any idea what would be realistic?

    Let's face it: every bike needs suspension mods, so the fact that a DL650 would need some is not shocking. On the LC4Adv only replacing springs was sufficient, on a lower-spec bike more thorough modifications are needed. And imho: every penny put into suspension is a penny well spent. Tyres and suspension, the most important components of a motorbike.

    That was my first idea also, so I very carefully watched LukasM's progress on his KaTaMaki project. Unfortunately he learned that it's quite problematic.

    I'm also toying around with the idea of building a frame which will fit the ER6 twin and keeping geometry and part fitment as close to 640Adv as possible. After all it's only 10 meters of pipe which connects the steering head to the swingarm. Sure, it's not that simple, but you get the idea.

    But then there are the Dutch vehicle taxes. If I build the frame, it must be checked by the authorities which costs money. OK, fine, can live with that. But in the end, you have a brand new bike according to the authorities, and you have to pay the additional taxes for them. How much exactly depends on the value of a comparable motorcycle, but together with the cost involved checking the frame etc. it's at least EUR 2000 (~US $2500), and probably even more.

    And then it's becoming quite expensive. Total build cost would soar up to EUR 7000-8000 euro easily. That's becoming quite close to the cost of a used F800GS, which would probably be a better base.

    Suspension must be done anyway. Ground clearance and 'crash-ability' are the major other issues.

    The battery can be solved. 26650 LiFePO4 cells measure 26mm diameter, 65mm long. You would need 8 of them plus a tiny bit of electronics. Not hard to stuff these somewhere.

    I wouldn't need that much fuel. 6-8 liters (1.5-2 gallons?) would be plenty. Some extra range on asphalt, plus the ability to use an almost empty 'regular' fuel tank. Should reduce the top-heavyness a lot. Under-seat is not even required; any solution which carries the fuel down low would do.

    Hmm, OK. Then maybe the LC8 is still a better choice. Maybe even an ThinLC8 is possible. I wish KTM made an LC6.

    But the question 'How good can it be, then?' remains. And 'Can I do with the bike what I want, and have fun doing it?'. How much suspension travel is possible without going to extremes, for example?

    LC4 is indeed by far the better bike with only one real weakness: the engine. But it's close to impossible to remove that weakness without custom frame building. So I'm investigating builds based on ER6/Versys/SV650/DL650 to determine which way to go.
  4. tileman

    tileman Long timer

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    Questions...........

  5. glitch_oz

    glitch_oz Long timer

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    It sure wouldn't be easy.... I've been following that thread carefully, too.


    :lol3 :clap :clap That's the spirit!! :freaky


    Yes, then there's always that. To me one of the key considerations to NOT spent 2 years and $50.000 to built something that might possibly turn out a lemon.



    Considering the standard 145mm (or thereabouts) 200mm might not be unreasonable...but pretty much borderline. Stewy's done some more work on that, I think.
  6. stewy (Aus)

    stewy (Aus) searching for a ride

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    yeah about 200mm, i been a bit slack with mine atm, in the middle of a full bathroom reno, but hopefully about 2 weeks away from having that finished and will move the bike back to my place from the folks garage, and get you some more info :evil
  7. glitch_oz

    glitch_oz Long timer

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    Just needed a softer spring and revalving.





    Again, Stewy's the man to talk to, he's gone with the DR tubes I think.
    Looking at a K7 (and later) DL650, they've got the extended swingarm (to accomodate the ABS unit) in both the ex-factory ABS and non-ABS version.

    Therefore, the wheelbase has been extended already (rearward). Personally I wouldn't like to stretch the front out on top of that.

    If you've ever had the chance to ride a K5 against a K7 back-to-back in some tight twisties (this is tar-riding) I'm sure you would've noticed the difference.

    Slow down the bike even more in the flip-flops (and with a higher CoG due to the raised supension slowing the side-to-side to add to that) and one starts to run out of fun fast.

    Perhaps all the above is just the substantiation I need to not spent another few months and a couple of grand on the bike :wink: :D


    No pics mate...nothing's changed from the last pics I posted here, apart from having clocked 10.000k's ++, a good third of that on gravel. The first set of K60s is pretty much cooked :eek1
  8. tileman

    tileman Long timer

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    I know that the extra height gain has an effect as I had this mod (dr tubes) already done on mine before I crashed it, (car disregarding a stop sign so no blaming the mod) but I don´t think it had a huge effect on the ride. Its a pretty cheap mod really, dr inners and shorter dogbones, theres more expensive options for sure. I am 190cm so maybe others would notice the mod more.
  9. DaBit

    DaBit Been here awhile

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    'Not easy' is something I don't care too much about because it means 'can be done'.
    But mounting that engine in the stock frame would cause a complete snowball effect. Need another rear, need another airbox where the fuel tank used to reside, thus need another fuel tank, thus needs another saddle, etc. And then there's the frame modifications needed to make things fit.

    If you have to do all that, bending and welding those few meters of steel becomes quite attractive. I have never done that before, but I will succeed if I decide to do so. Steel is dumb, ultimately it can't win from human beings. Maybe it wins round 1, maybe it wins round 2, but round 3 the human wins.

    If only we didn't have such a @#$^$ government. The money I have to give them for basically nothing is enough to buy quite a nice used bike.

    Hmm. Compared to what I'm used to now it's not much. But on the other hand: it's also what an R1100GS provides, and that thing brought me everywhere I wanted to.

    Regarding the slower steering with 21" and raised suspension: I don't see why it would be slower than the KTM on blacktop, and I'm happy with that. The speed-limiting factor is more often 'Cannot see what's behind that blind curve' than the bike itself.

    For my purposes starting with an SV of ER6N (those 'different kind of Versys'-threads are a nice read too) instead of a DL seems better, though.
  10. tileman

    tileman Long timer

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    I think I can speak for glitch as well re the government. I've looked into moding frames in Victoria OZ and its a relative nightmare, although like was said, not impossible. So we can share that with you.

    Re the KTM, the front triples have a lot less offset, which means the steering is going to be a bit quicker regardless of the 21 inch front wheel. How much, who knows........ and I am pretty sure that KTM triples will limit the steering lock quite a bit which may nessceciate a new set of triples, which starts down the road of who knows where...........:D
  11. DaBit

    DaBit Been here awhile

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    I'm not a motorcycle geometry specialist, so please don't kill me if I'm wrong.

    Isn't it the other way around? If you look at the standard rake/trail lines, they cross (quick googled image).

    Less offset means more trail which should increase straight-line stability and decrease 'flickability'. More offset reduces trail.

    So:

    - 21" wheel vs 19" wheel: increases trail (and inertia), slows down steering.
    - More fork offset: reduces trail, quickens steering. And increases maximum lock-to-lock steering angle an front wheel - rest of the bike clearance as a bonus.

    Right?
  12. tileman

    tileman Long timer

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    Yup my bad, other side of the world may have me upside down, I´ll try again. The ktm forks (and from what I can see most dirt bike forks) have more fork offset and less triple clamp offset which may end up being the equivalent trail, assuming the same size front wheel.

    My concern is with less fork offset the steering lock is less. As you said the stability will be greater. As the dl as standard has the front axle approx inline with the fork centreline and most enduros having a greater fork offset would make the job of keeping a equal total wheelbase a bit difficult. The fix may be a custom set of triples but the price may end this idea....:huh

    Be interesting if you follow the 21 inch wheel idea, although I think your going to have to use a spoked wheel to achieve it....

    Sorry Glitch for the hijack....:nah
  13. DaBit

    DaBit Been here awhile

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    It will be.

    But on the other hand: how much do you really need? The lock-to-lock angle of the KTM is quite limited also. But when the bike is rolling you change directions by pushing the bike in the turn, leaning over, countersteering, etc. Even when driving away from a parking lot or something you push the bike in the turn and you don't even use a fraction of available lock-to-lock range. Offroad you have the extra possibility of sliding the rear.

    A limited lock-to-lock angle is only irritating when manouvring the bike by hand.

    And old but very bright engineer told me once: 'Engineering is all about balances and tradeoffs'. Can't have it all. A 21" conversion, raised suspension, and maybe slightly lenghtened wheelbase will somehow affect road manners. On smooth, curvy asphalt it will behave less, on roads which didn't see any maintenance the past 15 years it will behave better.

    I'm willing to give up some smooth-asphalt manners to gain better bad-asphalt/no asphalt manners. Slower steering on smooth asphalt doesn't break my bones and wreck the bike, it only requires a bit more effort to persuade the bike. Bad manners on bad surfaces do break my bones, though. BTDT, autsj.

    Yep, it does. At least for me. But there are plenty of triples; it's just a difficult game of mix & match with the forks and steering stem.

    When possible I would prefer to use a complete front end off another bike. Forks, handlebar, triples, wheel, disc, brake caliper, etc.

    Yeah, it's going quite offtopic here. Sorry for that.

    At least I have most of my questions answered. I'm also convinced that an SV650 would be a better start than a DL650. Mainly because they are much cheaper, and all the extra's the DL has over the SV can go to the fleamarket/trashbin anyway.

    I'll find me a cheap one. That one can serve as backup bike when I pull the engine from the LC4 for some preventive maintenance and a repaint of the frame. During that time I can decide if I like the engine and do some parts shopping. If I like the SV650 package, I can start the slow process of modifying it to what I like. If I don't like the engine or see some issues I cannot live with, I'll sell it again.
  14. Mihai George

    Mihai George I LIVE. I DIE. I LIVE AGAIN! WITNESS ME!

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    Hello from the FUTURE!

    It is now 2015 (almost 2016) and this is just mega amazing!
    My DL650XT would look great with the exhaust under the seat and with that nice front end you got there... and with the gas tank cover!

    I am 29 and I think I could pass as your son, please send me the adoption papers! :)
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  15. AJ..

    AJ.. Long timer

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    :lol3......your last quote....
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  16. chornbe

    chornbe The monkey's football Supporter

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    I'm just bringing this thread back to life because, goodness, I read this project thread again after a few years, and it gives me joy and goosebumps all over again. <3
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