Attempted Hijacking yesterday

Discussion in 'The Perfect Line and Other Riding Myths' started by gaiaRTW, Oct 18, 2020.

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  1. bomose

    bomose Long timer Supporter

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    At what point can you determine whether someone means to kill you and whether he has a lethal weapon or not? Depending on how much bigger he is he may not need a weapon. If someone is beating on me or coming aggressively at me, I'll use deadly force and suffer the consequences. I'm not going to wait to see what his intentions are. Hopefully he'll back off when I show a weapon. If all he is doing is trying to take my stuff he can have it. In the OP's case, let him go. I would knock him off the bike if I could. He probably couldn't pick it up or even want to hang around to try.
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  2. dirtmarine

    dirtmarine Been here awhile

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    All good questions. I recommend the following two books to address these questions: "Deadly Force, Understanding Your Right to Self Defense", by Massad Ayoob and "The Law of Self Defense, The Indispensable Guide for the Armed Citizen", by Andrew Branca.
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  3. Barry

    Barry Just Beastly

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    X1,000,000 for anything by Massad Ayoob. I took a MAG 20 class and in 20 hours I took about 23 pages of notes on use of deadly force.
  4. dirtmarine

    dirtmarine Been here awhile

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    Yeah Ayoob is great. I did his 40 and 80 mag classes in AZ some years back and still have the notes. One of the best presenters I've ever seen.
  5. Barry

    Barry Just Beastly

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    Yup. I had no idea. I knew he had decades of experience, but I was amazed at the content and the presentation in the MAG20.
  6. dirtmarine

    dirtmarine Been here awhile

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    He has a number of firearms/shooting tactics books out and all worth reading. If one is going to carry I would recommend them for equipment choices. He gives self defense law classes to attorney continuing ed classes as there is little on the subject in law school. Has been an expert witness at hundreds of trials for the defense over the years to explain to juries how someone could do such and such in a self defense scenario that is not understood by the jury but was a justified shoot.
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  7. nevada72

    nevada72 Milwaukeeish

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    Good question. I've been in a few altercations in my lifetime. Twice when I was carrying. In one instance the guy had a bat, and in the other, it was 3 to one. In every instance I could tell it was just a dick measuring contest. It never went past a few punches and bat guy lost his bat which pretty much ended it with him begging for it back. :D Most aggressors (in my very limited experience) lose incentive when they realize they aren't squaring off against a punching bag. In both cases I'm sure they figured they had the advantage and that made them feel comfortable with confronting me. Well, it didn't go as planned fortunately for me. But at the time it was obvious to me that my life was not in danger and I never even considered pulling out a gun. What about it was obvious? Hard to describe. I think you just know when someone intends to kill you.

    That said, I was much younger. Now that I'm old (59), I may find it necessary to adjust. That and it seems like there is less value placed on life. It seems people are shooting each other over the most ridiculous things. Fortunately with age comes wisdom, and as mentioned, I haven't placed myself in a situation where trouble could happen. Or of if trouble di find me, I'm pretty sure I would see it coming.
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  8. Strong Bad

    Strong Bad Former World's Foremost Authority Supporter

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    So in the case of the OP, you would have shot? He was afraid losing life and limb......................
  9. anotherguy

    anotherguy Long timer

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    It's indeed difficult to determine when that line is crossed. Personally I don't carry...a gun. Assuming I am defenseless could be a painful mistake. Nor should you assume I am against carrying. These days I just avoid other humans as much as practical 'cause they've become very unpredictable.
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  10. Barry

    Barry Just Beastly

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    The question is “is the fear reasonable”? I know people, women esp, that say “oh, if that guy walked up near me in a parking lot, at night, he’s getting shot”. The fear of losing life or limb needs to be reasonable, and articulable. Some people wake up scared in the morning, and go through their day scared. That’s not an excuse to shoot anyone.

    Per the telling by the OP, he had no fear of life or limb. He was in a mild grapple, and was tossed aside so the attacker could get the bike. You can’t shoot someone over that unless your state allows you to shoot to protect your property. I wouldn’t have drawn a weapon in that instance. As one of my instructors said “even if the guy is bigger than you, you might need to take a punch or two before even considering drawing a weapon”. Words to keep you out of prison.

    Barry
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  11. bomose

    bomose Long timer Supporter

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    Years ago I had no problem determining intent. I'm not so sure in society today. I could also defend myself better back then, and did on several occasions. I'm 66 now and haven't practiced self defense in years. Not as strong nor as quick. That may determine how I defend myself against aggressors. I have walked away before and will do so any time I can.
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  12. anotherguy

    anotherguy Long timer

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    Yes. I'm 62 and slowing (and wearing) down. Sometimes I sound like a bowl of Rice Krispies when I get up in the morning. So in all honestly I'm more likely to react in a destructive fashion. It takes more to get me there but once the line is crossed the job will be completed one way or the other. I don't heal as fast as I used to so getting injured is high on the avoidance list.
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  13. Andyvh1959

    Andyvh1959 Cheesehead Klompen Supporter

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    Sad, that these days you have to defend yourself from the meth-heads that'll grab anything to sell for their next hit. I travel a lot for work, and ride alone primarily, and I make it a habit of "casing the place" no matter where I go, and keep in mind what defense opportunities I have. Being only 5-'-6" I carry myself in a manner not to look like a older (63) smaller guy. I've even discussed this with LEO friend's of mine and they say its a good practice no matter where you travel. I don't carry, never have, but I've considered many defensive options for a lot of my travels.

    For sure, if you're wearing a helmet, especially a FF helmet, your head/helmet is a weapon. Headbutt some dickhead wearing a FF helmet could do a lot of damage, assuming the perp isn't armed or capable to react. Plus, in my case I always wear an armored jacket so that may also deter some reactive hits. But the act of stopping/holding up a bike puts us in a sensitive position reaction wise right off the bat. However, if attacked just drop the bike and see if the perp has the wherewithall or ability to pick a bike up while you attack in response.

    All easy to say as a couch coach. just glad you weren't hurt.
  14. nevada72

    nevada72 Milwaukeeish

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    Good advice. I like it. Go Pack!
  15. Sal Pairadice

    Sal Pairadice Captain Obvious Supporter

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    Reminds me of the time I was running on the rail trail with my big fat yellow lab. He huffs and puffs like a steam train. Up ahead I see a woman walking in spandex tights so I go around her on the left. My dog is on my right, closer to her. As we get close she suddenly spins around with a can of bear spray in her hand and a snarl on her face, pointing it where the dog woul be if he were 6 feet tall.. I'm like WTF? She thought the dog was some perv was breathing heavy behind her. Reasonable?
  16. Sal Pairadice

    Sal Pairadice Captain Obvious Supporter

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    Yeah, coach forget that advice. A full face helmet is a serious disadvantage. They grab your chin bar and suddenly have huge leverage over you. Almost certainly anyone with moderately strong grip and arms can control you, put you off balance and take you down using your helmet chin bar.
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  17. Barry

    Barry Just Beastly

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    I would say her situational awareness sucks. Didn’t see anyone and whirls around with bear spray? Seems off.
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  18. Jim Moore

    Jim Moore Let's Go, Brandon!

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    Not if you surprise him.

    Motorcyclist Headbutt Thug Life - YouTube
  19. anotherguy

    anotherguy Long timer

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    They have all these videos labeled satisfying on utoob. None of them are as satisfying as watching that over and over. "I don't care...I don't care.. I don't...THUMP...falls right down. Wonder how that ended up. That was some aggressive shit there. That man had an outcome in mind.
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  20. Sal Pairadice

    Sal Pairadice Captain Obvious Supporter

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    I've seen that. It is satisfying. But I was curious if it was realistic so I had my buddy square off with me in all my riding gear. He immediately grabbed my chin bar and it was pretty much game over. I could break his grip off but that was all and if he wanted to he could have thrown me into a wall. Try it some time with a strong friend, you will see. You get off balance real fast. Keep the visor closed. But then you can''t get enough air.
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