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Discussion in 'Thumpers' started by BergDonk, Dec 20, 2010.
Awesome read! Thanks for writing!
Awesome stuff Steve those pics just blow me away.
What a great read too mate, i'll take the time to read it all again now, it was so good i tore through it like a fat kid with a bag of chips. (Sorry, poor analogy from skinny chopstick wished big)
Glad you had a great time with such an awesome crowd. They really looked after you and showed you a great time, what a great bunch of mates!!
Great RR Steve! Glad it all worked out well, thanks for the effort in writing it all up
Thank you for taking the time to write that up, I really enjoyed reading about your trip. If the rally becomes a regular thing I've got to try and get over there.
My next DR project is finishing HE650RS. It evolved over a period of years and went live 18 months or so ago. One thing that I didn't do was build her a new engine, I had a good ex insurance writeoff 14k kms stock engine on the shelf, and the planned Nova gearbox hadn't been realised, so the 14k km engine went in, which has been fine to date. Full build story is here; https://drriders.com/bergdonk-builds-a-dr650-for-his-lady-t17901.html
The B type, a wider ratio set than the A type I have in HI790S did finally arrive a couple of months ago, but with distractions like outback trips, family stuff and other things like a little actual paying work, it sat on the shelf until today. One of the distractions was a trip to Queensland to deliver the souvenirs for @Nogoodnamesleft that i was entrusted with. That was an S10 trip, solo north, and back south with Simon and Shannon who headed to Phillip Island for the GP last weekend. I came home and did some more work stuff, watching the GP on TV. They called in today enroute north for lunch, having a great ride.
Anyway, I started this afternoon. The new B box comes with a new fully assembled mainshaft for an even lower 1st gear, 1st drive gear is cut into the mainshaft. Nova also supplies all the bits for the countershaft, except a countershaft, so I got a new one of those too.
Its real bike porn and a shame to hide it away. As per the A type, more dogs, some undercut, and shouldered, some very slightly wider teeth and all polished in a ultrasonic ceramic chip bath for 24 hrs.
Other things happening over the next days, but its happening
I should add that there is another B type box out there and its alive. Procycle has one setup with a 790 top end and I had the opportunity to have a brief test ride on it at LaSal. I did also have the opportunity to ride it back to Oregon, but rightly or wrongly I passed on that. Jeff is keen for the bike to be used, so if you're over that way, test it out.
The gearbox story is over on DRR; https://drriders.com/new-wide-ratio-gearbox-t18311.html
My wife headed to Sydney for a few days, which means/meant I had unfettered access to the kitchen stove while she's not here, so time for a little baking in between some community work on the computer and keeping up to date here on ADV.
Chances are they weren't needed, but I decided to fit new bearings to the crankcases anyway. Mostly SKF Explorer C3, with one Koyo and one only Suzuki one, the one that's got a roll pin in it on the mainshaft behind the clutch. The ones I got are mostly 2RS and I removed the seals as needed. 3 Bearings have a single seal, both countershaft bearings, and the mainshaft in the LHS case. All the bearings, except the Suzi one were on the shelf at my bearing place.
Making sure I knew which ones go in which holes. I'd previously cleaned up the cases and removed the bearings, and I even used a marking pen to ID which bearings need the seals. Removing the bearings was done with the aid of the oven. Heat them up and the bearings mostly fall out, easy. You do need a blind puller on hand in case though.
I then removed the relevant seals and wrapped the bearings in cling wrap. Then it was off to the freezer with them for half an hour or so.
Each case half got about 20 mins at <> 130 C. With a copper hammer on hand, unwrapping the bearings and dropping them in, not burning myself. If they don't line up spot on and drop straight in, a bit of gentle persuasion from the copper hammer to square them up sorts it. You hear them seat with a thud as they fall in.
Ready for assembly now, just got to find the time. 3 days riding on the DR planned for the next few days, then more stuff lined up for another week or so, including more DR riding next weekend.
Of course its almost time for the MotoGP from Malaysia now, and maybe today it'll be Yamaha's day based on practice and qualifying; https://motomatters.com/analysis/2019/11/02/sepang_motogp_saturday_round_up_when.html
This is the bearings #s:
C3 Bearings LHS RHS
Counterbalancer 63/22 6204
Crankshaft 6208 6209
Mainshaft 6203 RS1 09262-22028 stock
Countershaft 6004 RS1 6305 RS1
The 3 bearings with seals are placed with the seals to the outside. The LHS ones seal the respective cavities to retain oil pressure which is fed to the shafts.
Beautiful stuff Steve.
Is that a special ball bearing polishing cloth?
Between your handle and this message, well...
I went riding last weekend, more here; https://advrider.com/f/threads/act-...t-and-surrounds.623350/page-524#post-38768109
I thought I'd try to take more pictures as I assemble this engine. Not a service manual replacement, but better pics than the manual has perhaps.
An audit of bits and pieces needed revealed one missing bolt, you need 16, 4 of which are the in between length, and only 3 got stored away for some reason.
I placed the RHS case on a couple of blocks of wood. Note the chip from the case where a 3rd drive gear dog that snapped off presumably interacted. The original engine was acquired from my local wrecker some years ago with no 5th gear @ <> 11k kms. Missing dogs will do this, and I found 2 in the cases when I pulled it down at the time.
I think this was the one, should be 3 dogs there, and only 2 were in the cases when I pulled it down. Might have come out with an earlier oil change, dunno, but the main reason I decided on all new case bearings.
Oil pump pickup screen inserted. Note the small locating tang on the upper RHS corner of the pic. Also in place is a magnetic sump plug, and you can see how long the magnet can be.
Cover plate bolted down. Note the 2 small holes that feed allow oil into the chamber. Any debris that gets in there, if ferrous, should attach to the magnet. Blue Loctite on the bolts.
Then the oil jet for the piston, and more blue Loctite. Make sure the small O ring is in place and OK, and the passage is clear.
Then the locking plate for the mainshaft bearing and the gear shift drum detent thing, and more Loctite.
The crank and balance shaft were previously wrapped in cling wrap for storage, and were latterly put in the freezer for a couple of hours. With them nicely chilled, I added a bit of heat to the relevant bearing inner races. Then with a light spray of light oil...
Some assembly lube on the gears and the crank and balancer shaft drop right in. Note the alignment marks for the gears.
Out with the Nova box for a final drool Make sure the washer on the shaft next to 1st driven gear has some grease or similar to stick it to the gear. The lube is good, and otherwise the washer won't stay put which is a pain.
Then drop the shafts together into place. I put a bit of lube on the end of the countershaft, but none on the mainshaft.
Then I noticed I'd forgotten to fit the oil pump idler gear shaft! Not too late though, happily. Preferably fit this sooner, and definitely before you put the cases together.
Almost the last opportunity to ogle the Nova delights, and check the clearance on 4th drive gear from the crank. You may recall that this bit got harder when I put my prototype A box together and I had to mod the crank.
Next its the shift drum and star wheel, with locating pin. Note the small detent on the star wheel is neutral and I prefer to position it there when inserting the drum assembly into the case.
Next its the shift forks. They can get mixed up, so you need to pay attention to this bit. They are number 1, 2 and 3. The numbers are cast into the forks, along with other numbers. Note the fork on the left is 374 - 1F, its #1, the one on the right is 374 2K, its #2 and the top on is #3 Identify them, and I then add the numbers again with a marking pen. The forks looked almost new, validating the claimed 11k kms.
After adding some more assembly lube to contacting bits, I placed the forks into position, then the shafts slide through to locate them.
After lubing up all the gears with some engine oil from an old style oil can, placing the dowels into the RHS case, with the right bolt count and a final wipe with a clean rag and some brake cleaner it was time to smear a light application of 3 Bond White, or 1211 onto the LHS case.
A little jiggling and some minor persuasion with a soft plastic mallet the LHS case drops nicely into place. Then its drop all 16 bolts into place, making sure all the same amount sticks out on each to get the lengths right. Progressively torque to 11nm and almost done.
I then wiped off any excess squeezed out sealant and flipped the cases. @procycle recommends adding some wicking Loctite to the mainshaft bearing to lock it right down. There has been some evidence of these turning inside the race, so this should prevent it. I'm using an Oz equivalent to Loctite 290, Chemtech 8290 which is 1/2 the cost and works the same. Note that above I mentioned inserting the mainshaft dry into its LHS bearing.
A couple of rags to keep any airborne crud out and the Loctite can do its thing until I get around to the next stage.
The Next Bit, and a Pause
I swabbed out the remaining Loctite and mounted the cases on my cradle.
I removed the barrel and piston from storage. I previously had the barrel deglazed via a very light hone and I'd decarboned the piston crown. I probably could have used it as it was, but decided on new rings too, WTH.
Put the new rings into the barrel and used the piston crown to push them down a bit, with the ring lands ensuring it was square. then with a feeler gauge, checked the gap. Should be fine with all stock bits, but easy to check anyway.
Top ring spec is 0.30 - 0.45 mm and it measured at 0.38 mm
Second ring spec is 0.45 - 0.60 mm and it measured 0.48 mm
The oil rings were 0.38 mm, but no spec for them, I'm sure they're fine as is.
I figured I might as well check the squish when its easy enough to do. Seems I've acquired a few complete gasket sets and not used the base gaskets!
I measured up the base gasket thicknesses and found a stock 2 piece laminated gasket is 0.5 mm thick and the aftermarket ones were either 0.6 or 0.7 mm thick. Pretty sure I'd discovered this when doing the squish on the 790 too, which got me confused a bit, this post refers; https://advrider.com/f/threads/bergdonks-dr650s.646076/page-98#post-33867836
I figured if I could get it about 1-1.1 mm I'd see what happens, even less as per PC if it went that way.
I have a few aftermarket head gaskets from full sets too. I think I've only used genuine head gaskets on builds to date. I've got 2 thicknesses of those too, 1.4 mm and 1.5 mm.
I'd got the head service professionally a few years ago too.
I fitted the piston to the rod, no rings or second circlip and slipped the barrel on with a stock base gasket, the thinner one of those on hand, along with a 1.4 mm head gasket. Then added 4 bits of 1.6 mm soft solder with a bit of grease at the cardinals and then put the piston a bit before TDC.
Head torqued down to 38 nm, the crank rotated freely, hmmm. Then after removing the head, it was evident that the solder had not been contacted, so more than 1.6 mm squish and not nearly enough.
I'd previously delaminated a stock base gasket when playing with the 790 build, but as per the above linked post, not utilised in anger. So I redid the check with a half stock gasket and pretty much got just on 1.6 mm squish.
I recalled a thread, and one post in particular over on DRR, and found it; https://drriders.com/je-high-compression-piston-190-web-cam-installatio-t21320.html
SV650racer there on DRR reckons the stock head gasket is 0.61 mm thick, and I don't have one on hand to check, so the build is on hold until a new genuine one one arrives in a few days. I can do a few other bits down low all the same, we'll see how it evolves.
Bergdonk, your photo essay makes the rebuild process very clear. Thank you.
After finishing the squish adjustment will you later do a displacement check of the final combustion chamber volume & thus confirm the actual compression ratio? I understand from what I've read on the various DR threads that the standard ex: factory C/R is somewhat lower than the book specs. say. Be interesting to find out....
I like the soft solder test
I hadn't thought about a cr check, maybe....
A Bit More
While I'm waiting the for head gasket, there's still some stuff I can do.
Like bolting on the starter with a Warp 9 end cap. I like to have something on every thread, Loctite, or antiseize, and I usually use Nickel stuff where steel and aluminium are in contact. So some nickel stuff on the mounting bolts, and some silicone lube on the O rings.
The stator cover still had some gasket on it, so a bit of time and care with a sharp blade its came good. Care is definitely needed if using a blade. The bung and plug popped straight out with the cordless Panasonic rattler.
Next I fitted the crank ring nut with the genuine Suzy funny socket which has likely now paid for itself, even as stupid expensive as they are.
Then the baffle plate. Stock they use JIS screws, but I prefer to use hex heads, and they get a bit of blue Loctite too.
Followed by the starter clutch, with some oil on its bearing. Don't be tempted to fit the woodruff key before the clutch, I did that once.
Then fit the woodruff key, the rotor/flywheel and its retaining bolt and the starter idler gear and backtorque limiter clutch on their shafts, with some lube. Don't forget the bushings and thrust washers for the backtorque limiter clutch shaft.
I then fitted the stator cover without gasket and held by only 2 bolts. Its only there temporarily as HE650RS has a high output stator in it, and I'll swap them over later.
Next up I fitted the gear change. The pawl mechanism is a pain, you need to assemble the above components into a unit, then hold it together while fitting. I have learnt that when pulling these down, a zip tie around the assembly keeps it as a unit for storage, and then makes it dead easy to put back as a unit. Not mentioned in the manual is that the pins have one flat end and one dome end. I've assumed the flat end goes in contact with the spring and the dome with the pawl to allow for the angular change, and assemble them this way in lieu of more informed knowledge.
Holding it all together, with some assembly lube, it slides right in and stays put.
Added the retaining plates with their countersunk JIS screws, some Loctite, and gave them a tap with my 1973 model Vessel impact driver.
A little more assembly lube for the change shaft and it meshes in. Don't forget the thrust washer.
Greased up a fresh gasket, assembly lube on the shaft and add cover. Insert bolts. Some people use a template to store bolts when the pull things down. I tend not to, I just keep all the bolts together with an assembly, then put them in randomly until they all stick out the same amount. Torqued to 6nm and done. I didn't put a new seal in the cover, it looked OK, and not hard to do it later if needed.
Not a lot, but progress all the same.
I feel like I have a front row seat to open heart surgery of the 6 million dollar man.