BergDonk's DR650s

Discussion in 'Thumpers' started by BergDonk, Dec 20, 2010.

  1. BergDonk

    BergDonk Old Enough to Know Better

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    A small thing I neglected to mention above, and @kezzajohnson just reminded me here; https://advrider.com/f/threads/the-dr650-thread.135295/page-10703#post-38785975

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    The pickup coil is something that occasionally fails on DRs, rare, but not unknown. I carry a spare in my tool kit on the bike in case. Stock, they are held in with a couple of Loctited JIS screws. With the stator cover off the bike, I replace the JIS screws with Allen heads to simplify a possible field replacement. Look closely and you'll see them in there.
  2. BergDonk

    BergDonk Old Enough to Know Better

    Joined:
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    Countershaft Seal

    Way back I had one blow out and came up with a retainer to keep it in place. I made and sold a few too, then Procycle sold their own version followed by Suzuki in about 2012 IIRC after some blew out under warranty. The manual indicates to fit these before assembling the cases, but I prefer to do it after, when I reckon I have more control, and am less likely to damage the seal.



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    Note the bearing inside the case and that it has its seal in place. Once the countershaft seal goes in it forms a sealed chamber that feeds pressurised oil via a small hole in the hollow countershaft to the gears. These do not blow out due to crankcase pressure, they blow out because stock, or at least on older bikes, there is nothing to hold the seal in against the oil pump's pressure other than friction.




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    I use a bit of heat shrink tube to protect the seal from the sharp edges of the shaft, lube it with a bit of silicone spray, then slide the seal on. There is no retaining lip to prevent the seal going in too far, so a big flat washer ensures it can't, and with the aid of a long 25 mm socket and a gentle tap, its positioned in place. Then a Suzuki seal retainer is added and done. These are tidier, and cheaper than the ones I made. If you don't have a seal retainer on your DR650 yet, get one.
  3. BergDonk

    BergDonk Old Enough to Know Better

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    A Bit on the Other Side

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    Time for the crank primary drive gear. Fit the woodruff key, then make sure the gear slides all the way on, and check the key is still there. The last one of these I did a year ago the woodruff key came out in the oil! Then the spring washer and some Loctite for the LH threaded nut and BFT.

    EDIT; Don't fit this yet, wait for the cam chain, see below.



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    I had a good look for any signs of damage inside the oil pump that could have resulted from pumping debris and happily there was nothing to see. With some oil inside, 3 hex head bolts instead of the stock JIS screws, and a dab of Loctite, its then secured in place.




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    Followed by the oil pump idler gear. FWIW, circlips have a rounded edge one side and a flat face the other from the stamping process that makes them. This means they can have a right and a wrong way to fit them. In this case, the idler gear shaft, I fit the round face to the gear, and the flat face to the shaft. This way, the flat face has maximum contact with the shaft's groove to resist removal by any pressure from the gear, which may or may not make a difference.





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    The NSU, or Neutral Switch Unit. These can be problematic, because they shrink over time with heating and cooling cycles which takes the tension off the attaching screws. A screw can then fall out and come out in the oil, or destroy the engine. The fix is a dab of Loctite, or safety wire, or some do both. I've found Loctite to be good enough.

    The rag at the bottom means that if the spring and plunger escape, or one of the Allen heads that replace the earlier model JIS screws, gets away, it won't get inside.

    The baffle plate is attached with hex heads instead of JIS screws, also Loctited.

    The clutch is almost next inside here, but has to wait for the cam chain, which has to wait for.....
    sarcoid, JRowland, JagLite and 7 others like this.
  4. BergDonk

    BergDonk Old Enough to Know Better

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    Back to the Squish

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    A new head gasket arrived and I had another go at the squish. As mentioned, after market gaskets were 1.4-1.6 mm thick and the thinner one I played with didn't seem to crush much, if any, when torqued. The stock head gasket is a 3 piece lamination and measured 1.0 mm and after torquing, 0.7 mm. With it and a single lamination base gasket the front and rear solders measured 0.8 mm and 0.9 mm respectively.

    I'm not 100% sure its a good idea, but more googling and revisiting the process I went though with the 790 squish I've decided to try this out, this is about on the limit I think, and more or less in line with what @procycle recommended to me for the 790 and a couple of others have achieved. A stock base gasket would yield <> 1.1 - 1.2 mm it seems.

    I guess we'll know more soon enough :D
  5. BergDonk

    BergDonk Old Enough to Know Better

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    Top End 1

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    I removed the piston and fitted the rings. I like to mark out on the piston the location of the end gaps with a marking pen, they can and do move about when fitting the barrel. A rag around the hole in case the gudgeon circlip goes wayward and then fit the clip.




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    The base gasket especially had a few marks on it, its been used not only here but on the 790 when squishing, so I gave them a coat of copper spray stuff and smeared a bit of assembly lube onto the piston walls.

    With a bit of assistance from my wife, we slipped the barrel on and secured it with the 2 10 mm nuts. Then it was time for the cam chain, and I stuffed up, fitting the primary drive gear prematurely the other day. I even thought I'd checked that it'd go on before I torqued up the nut.




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    A strap wrench held the rotor while I rattled the gear nut off. Then fitted the chain and front guide followed by the gear and Loctiting the crank nut back on.




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    I almost forgot to fit the studs to the head, much easier with the head off. Once the head is in place its time to drop all 4 long bolts into place. There's 3 different lengths and manual is wrong when it comes to positioning them. Not a problem though, drop them is and arrange them so they all stick up the same amount. With lubed threads, progressively torque them to spec, 38 nm.




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    Camshaft. With the crank back at TDC I added some moly paste to the camshaft journals and the locating C washer. Then the camshaft itself followed by the sprocket. With the chain in place, confirmed the timing marks on the flywheel and camshaft, then add the lock tab washer, some Loctite to the bolts and them torqued to 10 nm. Note that lock tab washer needs to cover the dowel pin that locates the sprocket on the camshaft. If not, its not unknown for them to exit and head down.

    Then its time to fit the rear guide. It can be a bit tricky to hold and position into pace, but a thin pair of long nose needle pliers does the job, then add bolt.




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    The cam chain tensioner, or CCT, needs to be wound in, a longish thin flat bade does the job. Hold the plunger as you wind it and it should lock when fully retracted. Then fit to the barrel. In this case the old gasket appeared 100% intact attached to the barrel, so I left it alone and added a smear of grease. Once the bolts are tight, with the screwdriver, turn the screw a bit the other way and the plunger will release and tension the chain via the guide, which pivots on the top bolt.
  6. BergDonk

    BergDonk Old Enough to Know Better

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    More Up Top

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    Attached the inlet manifold with a couple of stainless Allen heads in lieu of the stock JIS screws.




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    I'd pulled the rocker cover apart way back, not entirely sure why, but does make it easier to clean up. Note the notches in the rocker shafts and the spring thrust washers.





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    The notches need to line up with the associated cover bolts. Look closely and you'll see one in there, and I use a screw double nutted to fit the shaft, which also means it can be rotated to get the notch to line up. Note that the thrust washers go closest to the cam sprocket RHS end.





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    Making sure all 12 bolts are present. Note that 2 of the mid size ones have sealing washers under the head, they go to the left of the engine, spark plug side.





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    I found a bit of scrap and used it to retain 2 temporary bolts to ensure the shafts stay put. I've been caught out with these before, even if not disassembled.





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    Some lube to the cam lobes and valve stem tops and a final wipe of the sealing surfaces with some brake cleaner and a clean rag.




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    I thought I took a pic of the sealant, 3 Bond White again, on the cover, but.... At TDC again with bung, with a little sealant, and dowels in place the cover drops on. Note that I'd backed the tappet screws right off. Then dropped all the bolts into position and torqued then to 10 nm. I then turned the tappet screws in and rotated the crank a couple of times followed by setting the clearances; https://advrider.com/f/threads/bergdonks-dr650s.646076/page-19#post-20354112





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    Added the rocker shaft end bungs, couple of spark plugs and tappet covers, which'll get swapped later for the fancy ones. Might have the top finished :D
  7. BergDonk

    BergDonk Old Enough to Know Better

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    I decided to pass on the compression ratio check. I don't have the necessary measuring equipment, or easy access to it, and not sure what I'd do with it once known, other than add to the database.
    Sonny S., Halifax614 and mrsdnf like this.
  8. Sonny S.

    Sonny S. Long timer

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    Man I absolutely love this thread!! I really appreciate you taking the time to post such detailed descriptions and pictures of your projects. This is like an online DR650 mechanics class.. Lol.
    I've built many Harley engines but never been in my DR's. Should I ever I'll be right back here looking at the tips and tricks.
    Thanks BergDonk!
  9. mrsdnf

    mrsdnf Long timer

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    +1 on what Sonny said.
  10. BergDonk

    BergDonk Old Enough to Know Better

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    Clutch

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    I laid out all the bits for a stocktake, including new thrust washers . The inner smaller one next to the bearing can deform a bit it seems and new parts are cheap insurance; https://drriders.com/dragging-clutch-check-this-out-t6671.html#p268127

    and I may have also identified another factor....




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    I fitted the thrust washer dry, the bushing with some assembly lube, then placed the basket into position. Take care to get the oil pump idler gear teeth lined up before pushing the basket all the way home. Lock washer, spring washer and nut torqued to 55 nm, a bit more than spec 50 nm and problem! The hub now attached to the mainshaft should spin freely inside the basket and it didn't, something was binding.
    :becca

    Some investigation revealed that the hub was binding on one of more of the steel 'buttons' in the basket. What to do? I could remove a bit of material from either or both the basket and hub, or.... Not sure if the clearance is critical to support the hub or not. I had a spare hub in the collection, so tried that and sorted!

    Not sure if hubs and baskets need to be a pair, and not 100% sure this was all the original bits from this engine, I've done a couple now over recent years and might have swapped a few bits, not sure.

    The clutch holding tool, although not essential, is cheap and makes it easy.



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    The plates had been soaking in oil for a few days, and pretty sure they're stock plates, with the inner one being a bit different to the rest. Make sure the pressure plate seats properly, it may give a false impression. Torque the bolts progressively to 10 nm.




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    I fitted a new crank end oil seal, although likely not necessary, and used hex instead of JIS screws and a dab of blue Loctite. Then antiseized dowels, some lube on the new seal lip and a new freshly greased gasket.




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    Fitted all the bolts, the one with the sealing washer goes next to the oil pipe banjo bolt and torqued all the bolts to 6 nm. A new filter and O rings along with a magnet ring followed by the oil pipe.





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    All orifices blanked off, cables secured and ready for transplant.
  11. JagLite

    JagLite Long timer Supporter

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    Excellent!
    It probably took at least twice as long to do it and take pictures and even longer to write it up.
    As always, someone good at it makes it look easy.
    Thanks brother!
    AK650, GsGrins, Wodger63 and 7 others like this.
  12. BergDonk

    BergDonk Old Enough to Know Better

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    Almost Done

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    I wheeled HE650RS into the shed, pulled off the tank, seat etc, and hit it with the pressure washer.




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    Then into the shed and with the bike leaning to the right, drained the oil and decided it made sense to swap the stator covers over sooner rather than later, its got a Ricks HO stator, and the other bits like blingy filler plug and tappet covers with cooling fins while it was still bolted in place.




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    Old engine out and ready for the new Nova equipped upgrade. Should be operational in good time tomorrow. If I'm happy with the break in process to bed it down, I'm off on a 3 day ride next week, and if I swap seats, might as well ride HE650RS for a good test of its latest update.

    Assuming its as good as I expect/hope, perhaps with the exception of better rims and spokes, its gotta be close to the ultimate reliable do it all RTW machine.

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    Tooheys Old right now, someone left a few in the fridge when they visited. Good brew, not my first choice, but it'll do tonight :drink
  13. BergDonk

    BergDonk Old Enough to Know Better

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    I definitely have to keep reminding myself to stop and take a pic, something I'm not usually very good at, stopping when on a roll...... and you're right, it takes a bit of time to write it up, but it will save me time on the next rebuild, and maybe others too.
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  14. BergDonk

    BergDonk Old Enough to Know Better

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    In With the New

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    I had plans to get this far yesterday, but got sidetracked. Anyway, it lives. It started right up and I've been up and down the driveway a few times and no obvious leaks or noises, but as yet, only as far as 3rd gear. I put a 50/50 blend of 30 break in oil and 15W 40 cheap mineral oil. I'll get out this afternoon for a 100 kms or so to bed the rings then do an oil change. If its all good, I have a 3 day ride starting on Wed and I reckon I'll take HE650RS instead of HI790S for a proper test of the gearbox and especially the ratios, there's a few hills on the agenda.
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  15. BergDonk

    BergDonk Old Enough to Know Better

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    85 kms and its all Good

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    About what I'd expect, or perhaps even a bit less.

    The gearbox :getiton

    The wider ratios are a non issue, at least on my up and down twisty windy dirt road to town and back. 1st definitely plonks better about home, and 5th cruises fine too. I'll know more at the end of the week.

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    WR B vs the WR A in HI790S.

    The gear change is like HI790S too, much smoother and 'snickier' than stock.

    It also seems to run a bit crisper than the previous engine, which may be due to the valve job, but I guess more likely a result of the reduced squish. No sounds or sudden loss of performance suggesting valve piston contact either. Seems @procycle knows a thing or two about building these things, and I might have to revisit the base gasket in HI790S now too :beer

    Some fresh Penrite 15/50 semi synthetic now for the next few days, then the Lubealloy LA35 sweet stuff.

    :D
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  16. BergDonk

    BergDonk Old Enough to Know Better

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    Another 930 kms and its Excellent!

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    Just changed the oil after 930 kms on Wed/Thu/Fri. Plenty of rocky hills and some flowing single track using 1st, 2nd and 3rd gears a lot and then some more open stuff as well as a bit of highway. There's no metal shards on the sump plug, just paste. Its now got the good oil in it so I expect very little paste next change.

    I've wondered whether the ratios would be too wide for a stock 650, but they're not, at least in HE650RS. Its got 15/43 sprockets which means its geared 2.4% lower than the stock in US 15/42 and 4.88% lower than the 15/41 many/most came with in Oz. However, with the Nova top being 4.2% taller it means HE650RS in top gear is geared about standard with 15/41 and in first, being 4.9% lower due to the 15/43, + the lower Nova B 1st its another 7.6% lower, for 12.5% lower overall than stock in 1st to go with the stockish 5th.

    The engine, presumably due to @procycle 's recommendation re the squish, is about the nicest running stock DR650 I've ridden. The tighter squish along with the 40 mm FCR and hybrid GSXR exhaust may well be covering the gearing gaps that might exist in a setup that doesn't work as well to start with.

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    On the last leg almost home I came up my test hill. Ambient temp was 35C in the valley and according to the Vapor sump oil temp was 101C at the bottom. It climbed to 126C at the top, just on my limit of comfort. I made a few more gear changes than I would have on HI790S, but not many. The extra torque of the bigger bore means its hangs on to revs easier, and recovers easier after backing off, maybe with a dab of the clutch, whereas the 650 falls off and needs a lower gear and revs to recover. If it was a race, there'd be little in it.

    I'm very pleased with the outcome, now to get her back on it for a definitive opinion.

    :ricky
  17. DR790

    DR790 Been here awhile

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    Those tranny gears sound like the perfect combination.
    JagLite and BergDonk like this.
  18. BergDonk

    BergDonk Old Enough to Know Better

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    Bit more discussion here on the big thread FWIW; https://advrider.com/f/threads/the-dr650-thread.135295/page-10762#post-38891126 and quoted below again.


    HE650RS's old engine got transplanted into a mate's DR this afternoon. He plans to rebuild his old engine, which is now shedding bits of gear tooth, with a new Nova box as soon as he can get one. He's on the waiting list and rode his DR with new engine and HE650RS back to back this afternoon. He agreed that the gearing in top on HE650RS is now too high for what we do and isn't cancelling his Nova order either.
    JagLite, JRowland and Nogoodnamesleft like this.
  19. Dalmatino

    Dalmatino Been here awhile

    Joined:
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    Prison Planet Earth
    BergDonk, I'm considering the 790 kit (procycle got 15%off now) but figure if I do I might as well go all the way (+ cam and big valve head).
    I Got the Carb and full exhaust on stock motor now.

    Since you've gone through all these variations and know these things intimately, can you give me your thoughts on well set up 650 (carb exhaust), + 790 kit, + cam, + bv head in a bit of a summary....pros and cons (expense vs gains), reliability/drivability whatever you can think of!
    I'm a bit afraid to go the whole nine yards and go, "shit it wasn't worth it, should have stayed with just a well sorted 650"!

    After all this, logically, Nova would be next (probably necessary) so now it becomes a very expensive DR....Wait, between PC and Warp9 it already is lol...

    Thanks....

    My build:
    https://advrider.com/f/threads/lord-yes-another-dr650-build.1414621/
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  20. TRTN

    TRTN Adventurer

    Joined:
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    Oddometer:
    91
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    Melbourne
    I'm thinking the same thoughts... Currently on FCR carb and GSXR exhaust. And have a high comp piston on the shelf.
    Am looking at piston with the right squish first after summer.

    After that potentially re-working the head with XF650 valves, different cam, 790 kit, gearbox.... Hmmm relative benefits are diminishing?
    More likely i will spend $ on a Yenkro fairing :)
    JagLite likes this.